Well, that's one of the main points of the Synergy concept. There's a crossover, which is great for minimizing distortion and keeping a common radiation pattern over a wide range, but if done even just decently, you really can't hear it nor tell where it is. Even when measuring unless you can turn off drivers to see where one ends and the other starts.
No, no, no!!! He said "phase" plug!!! 
Began a Trynergy and made a left turn at Lazy...
I was all gung-ho to make a full scale Trynergy (xrk971's) with the TC9 driver. However, not having the correct woofers, and having the "incorrect" CTS (ex-bose 901) drivers I went back to hornresp and looked for something simple. Conical horn that easily fits from a 4'x8' sheet of foam board. "Why, " I thought to myself, "make somebody else's project, even if it was well researched and tested, when I could make something original, albeit half-assed, and learn in the process?"
HR sims indicate that the pair of woofers will reach down to 100 Hz even with just two, this was sort of a requirement for meeting my sub.
The sim of the TC9 is more iffy. I know it should be for 1K and up but it is droopy I will worry about this later.
1st ijit-iteration of horn is a convenient 48" long and the mouth is 30x30 cm; this looks like it will be a rather narrow dispersion? The throat and mouth are a bit smaller than planned due to me forgetting how to make the butt joints. I suspect I may be a butt myself
I was all gung-ho to make a full scale Trynergy (xrk971's) with the TC9 driver. However, not having the correct woofers, and having the "incorrect" CTS (ex-bose 901) drivers I went back to hornresp and looked for something simple. Conical horn that easily fits from a 4'x8' sheet of foam board. "Why, " I thought to myself, "make somebody else's project, even if it was well researched and tested, when I could make something original, albeit half-assed, and learn in the process?"
HR sims indicate that the pair of woofers will reach down to 100 Hz even with just two, this was sort of a requirement for meeting my sub.
The sim of the TC9 is more iffy. I know it should be for 1K and up but it is droopy
I will worry about this later.1st ijit-iteration of horn is a convenient 48" long and the mouth is 30x30 cm; this looks like it will be a rather narrow dispersion? The throat and mouth are a bit smaller than planned due to me forgetting how to make the butt joints. I suspect I may be a butt myself
The on axis HF response of the TC9 will "droop" a lot less than the Hornresp sim indicates.The sim of the TC9 is more iffy. I know it should be for 1K and up but it is droopy
1st ijit-iteration of horn is a convenient 48" long and the mouth is 30x30 cm; this looks like it will be a rather narrow dispersion? The throat and mouth are a bit smaller than planned due to me forgetting how to make the butt joints. I suspect I may be a butt myself
The HF dispersion of a 48" x 30cm horn will be less than ten degrees (-6dB) but because of the small mouth dimensions and narrow horn wall dimensions will only have pattern control to around 8000 Hz. Below 8000 Hz dispersion will widen, almost omnidirectional by 2000 Hz.
Ultra-beamy.
I was all gung-ho to make a full scale Trynergy (xrk971's) with the TC9 driver. However, not having the correct woofers, and having the "incorrect" CTS (ex-bose 901) drivers I went back to hornresp and looked for something simple. Conical horn that easily fits from a 4'x8' sheet of foam board. "Why, " I thought to myself, "make somebody else's project, even if it was well researched and tested, when I could make something original, albeit half-assed, and learn in the process?"
HR sims indicate that the pair of woofers will reach down to 100 Hz even with just two, this was sort of a requirement for meeting my sub.
The sim of the TC9 is more iffy. I know it should be for 1K and up but it is droopy
1st ijit-iteration of horn is a convenient 48" long and the mouth is 30x30 cm; this looks like it will be a rather narrow dispersion? The throat and mouth are a bit smaller than planned due to me forgetting how to make the butt joints. I suspect I may be a butt myself
Try two of these in parallel, should give nice sensitivity and hit below 80Hz easily.
https://www.parts-express.com/tc-1028-10-ribbed-paper-cone-woofer-with-foam-surround-8-ohm--299-2182
Also, up to you, but a lot of research and design went into those tractrix plans and it works well for high sensitivity operation with TC9FD. You will probably save a ton of time and headache by sticking with the plan. It really is easy to make once you cut it out according to the plan. The curves self-align and presto - a curved wall tractrix horn is made in hours. Will you really save time making your own 48in x 20cm horn to end up with a beamy beast that is unwieldy? 4 ft is long!
Or go the lazy approach and buy a used JBL 2386 for $35 and install the TC9FD or SB65 and a pair of 8in (or even 10in) woofers like in Bookshelf Horn thread. Just use lots of bondo, plywood, etc to piece it together.
http://clairusedgear.com/products/jbl-2386-horn
http://www.sound-image.com/wp-content/uploads/JBL_2386.pdf
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With the xrk971 plans, I did get as far as making a 2x "tiled" print and taped them together. Of course I am making some assumptions that a double sized Trynergy will work; probably so, but maybe needs a different set of drivers. Another reason I stopped was my sloppy tape-job, as well as doubts I can bend my "foam board" (R-Matte-Plus-3), lest it crack.
I have a lot to learn about the other issues of horns, pattern control, beaming, etc. Meanwhile, Beraneck's law is in force and I'll probably build a mate for my 4-foot horn, and give them a listen for a few days. Even with no EQ, it sounds ok, possibly just the novelty effect. Even if I only have a sweet spot, this might give an exmaple of the headphone like sound of horns -- something I've never exprienced (headphones, yes, horns no.)
I have a lot to learn about the other issues of horns, pattern control, beaming, etc. Meanwhile, Beraneck's law is in force and I'll probably build a mate for my 4-foot horn, and give them a listen for a few days. Even with no EQ, it sounds ok, possibly just the novelty effect. Even if I only have a sweet spot, this might give an exmaple of the headphone like sound of horns -- something I've never exprienced (headphones, yes, horns no.)
Your very beamy horn won't sound like headphones, due to it being omni for all but the highest frequencies- it takes pattern control to reduce room reflections to where they are not a major part of what you hear.
If the foam core you purchased would crack when bent, you can approximate curves with multiple sections. That said, most of the Synergy horns use all flat sides.
The side wall angle of a conical horn is pretty much the -6dB pattern control angle. Using a cone speaker (no phase plug) the pattern is a bit wider, but basically if you can't see the cone, you won't hear much high frequency.
The pattern control is lost when the horn mouth is smaller than the wavelength produced, the waves diffract around the mouth edge.
To get the approximate frequency for the lower pattern control: 1,000,000 divided by horn mouth in inches times horn angle. When figuring conical horns using a secondary horn angle (to reduce diffraction and "waistbanding", contraction, then expansion of pattern) the mouth size would be considered smaller than the second portion, but a bit larger than the first. Same holds true with horns (like tractrix) that the last portion rapidly expands.
Two examples:
50 degree 12 inch horn mouth, 1,000,000/600=1666.66 Hz (Hmm, mark of the beast..)
10 degree 12 inch horn mouth, 1,000,000/120=8333.33 Hz.
Using the formula, it is easy to estimate what frequency a horn that has the vertical dimension smaller than the horizontal will undergo "pattern flip", the more narrow dispersion becoming wider than the (nominally) wider angle.
Art
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A 2x Trynergy needs a 10in driver and will go down to about 88Hz. But then it's really a mid bass horn and not a fullrange horn.
Try the 0.7x (3.5in driver) plans or 0.5x plans (2.5in driver) much smaller and easier to make. Get some experience cutting and gluing small ones before attempting bigger ones.
Try the 0.7x (3.5in driver) plans or 0.5x plans (2.5in driver) much smaller and easier to make. Get some experience cutting and gluing small ones before attempting bigger ones.
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...or even the 1.0x which should not be beyond my skills (I may even buy some regulation foam board.) So far I have managed to cut some foam, albeit sloppily, without castrating myself or any arterial bleeding, indeed any flesh wounds whatsoever
No doubt my Travesty I (so dub I the abortion described above in post #24) is only a "horn" > 8 KHz or whatever, but even on the floor a pair of them provide the occasional imaging surprise (perhaps this isn't a fair fight, conditioned as I am to listening to Bose 901's "stereo everywhere" (and precise imaging "nowhere")
A further advantage is it's too small for the cats to hide inside, unlike my 12" Sonotubes of a few years ago
No doubt my Travesty I (so dub I the abortion described above in post #24) is only a "horn" > 8 KHz or whatever, but even on the floor a pair of them provide the occasional imaging surprise (perhaps this isn't a fair fight, conditioned as I am to listening to Bose 901's "stereo everywhere" (and precise imaging "nowhere")
A further advantage is it's too small for the cats to hide inside, unlike my 12" Sonotubes of a few years ago
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Soldermizer,No doubt my Travesty I (so dub I the abortion described above in post #24) is only a "horn" > 8 KHz or whatever, but even on the floor a pair of them provide the occasional imaging surprise (perhaps this isn't a fair fight, conditioned as I am to listening to Bose 901's "stereo everywhere" (and precise imaging "nowhere")
Your "Travesty" is a single section conical horn, it just does not have pattern control below a very high frequency
.
A lucid (?) question...
For the Travesty II, I am considering a "design" (I use the term somewhat loosely !) that would have a much bigger mouth, so that I would have directivity somewhat lower than 8KHz
...slowly I am learning...
All I have for modeling is Hornresp, I am only considering conical horns right now, since they are easiest to build, and it looks like I get down < 1 KHz pattern failure when the mouth is around 4000-6000 cm^2.
Question: if I am determined to make a 1970s satellite TV sized "horn", with the TC9 driver, I am assuming I will lose efficiency but gain directivity and still have beaming issues? It's not quite a Trynergy but I'll likely try that eventually
For the Travesty II, I am considering a "design" (I use the term somewhat loosely !) that would have a much bigger mouth, so that I would have directivity somewhat lower than 8KHz
...slowly I am learning...
All I have for modeling is Hornresp, I am only considering conical horns right now, since they are easiest to build, and it looks like I get down < 1 KHz pattern failure when the mouth is around 4000-6000 cm^2.
Question: if I am determined to make a 1970s satellite TV sized "horn", with the TC9 driver, I am assuming I will lose efficiency but gain directivity and still have beaming issues? It's not quite a Trynergy but I'll likely try that eventually
Seems to me that a Synergy to midbass above a sub is exactly as good as a Synergy that goes lower. The 1/4 wavelength thing will still happen and the at midbass we are already at an omni radiation patten. Other than space considerations I see no reason to radiate true lows from a Synergy at all. I feel the two way (Unity) is simply smarter by a long shot.
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Pimping the pure conical horn...
Other than being very easy to build and model in Hornresp, the conical is supposed to be good for (and I cite a source, very rare for me !)
[The] conical expansion is not very useful in bass horns. Indeed, the conical horn is not very useful at all in applications requiring good loading performance, but it has certain virtues in directivity control.
Bjørn Kolbrek, "Horn Theory: An Introduction Part 1", Audio Xpress (2008)
Also the conical doesn't fluffnutter or transpixelate the highs, or whatever it is
It' starting to make sense why Danley's horns are conical (two diferent curves?) and the DIY efforts just use woofers approaching "normal" (ported or sealed), thus evading the need for a mouth the size of a Los Angeles storm sewer
This scrap of data brightens my idea for making a bass-free "directional" (not to claim "efficient" or "non-beaming") horn.
Other than being very easy to build and model in Hornresp, the conical is supposed to be good for (and I cite a source, very rare for me !)
[The] conical expansion is not very useful in bass horns. Indeed, the conical horn is not very useful at all in applications requiring good loading performance, but it has certain virtues in directivity control.
Bjørn Kolbrek, "Horn Theory: An Introduction Part 1", Audio Xpress (2008)
Also the conical doesn't fluffnutter or transpixelate the highs, or whatever it is
It' starting to make sense why Danley's horns are conical (two diferent curves?) and the DIY efforts just use woofers approaching "normal" (ported or sealed), thus evading the need for a mouth the size of a Los Angeles storm sewer
This scrap of data brightens my idea for making a bass-free "directional" (not to claim "efficient" or "non-beaming") horn.
Question: if I am determined to make a 1970s satellite TV sized "horn", with the TC9 driver, I am assuming I will lose efficiency but gain directivity and still have beaming issues? It's not quite a Trynergy but I'll likely try that eventually
Right, since without a phase plug, the driver's rising on axis response will prevail and due to the horn's large air mass it will damp down the HF somewhat and why Lowther or similar rising HF response drivers are preferred.
GM
Found some tools...
I've just discovered bwaslo's Synergy Calc spreadsheet. Since I am currently fixated on pure conical horns, and since Danley uses two conicals in his units, this seems like a good area for me to play with (software). I will search the xrk971 threads. If he has built the Trynergy, with the incomprehensive tractix curve which demands folding the fourth dimension
it is very likely that he did a foam board more Synergy-like model prior .
I've just discovered bwaslo's Synergy Calc spreadsheet. Since I am currently fixated on pure conical horns, and since Danley uses two conicals in his units, this seems like a good area for me to play with (software). I will search the xrk971 threads. If he has built the Trynergy, with the incomprehensive tractix curve which demands folding the fourth dimension
it is very likely that he did a foam board more Synergy-like model prior .
My conical synergy was in design stages with jennygirl way back. This design also was the initial rough plans that led to Weltersys' SynTrippi horn - a very compact and successful design.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/262838-synergy-tripp-10-a-5.html
The bass reflex re-injection seems to work well with the 10CL51. The modeling in Akabak and build confirmed 80Hz extension with a 2-way. With the latest bookshelf horns we see that with the proper woofer selection one can easily get 80Hz and even 40Hz with a sealed box in the back if the woofer is not asked to go all the way up to 1.2k to meet up with the compression driver. By using a full range for the mid tweet at the apex it really allowed the woofer to stretch much lower than a traditional synergy. Look at the bandwidth that Bushmeister is able to achieve at 100dB and still maintain remarkably low HD levels.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/262838-synergy-tripp-10-a-5.html
The bass reflex re-injection seems to work well with the 10CL51. The modeling in Akabak and build confirmed 80Hz extension with a 2-way. With the latest bookshelf horns we see that with the proper woofer selection one can easily get 80Hz and even 40Hz with a sealed box in the back if the woofer is not asked to go all the way up to 1.2k to meet up with the compression driver. By using a full range for the mid tweet at the apex it really allowed the woofer to stretch much lower than a traditional synergy. Look at the bandwidth that Bushmeister is able to achieve at 100dB and still maintain remarkably low HD levels.
Thanks, X.
Yet another thread to read
Travesty 2.0 was made last night; this one in coroplast + hot glue vice foam board. After wasting Saturday modelling in Hornresp I took the lazy way out (usually I do) and said WTF, just take my most common sign size (24x18") and ....
I settled on a mouth size of 24" square. For simplicity I just measured for an 8x8 cm throat, so just cut a trapezoid from each sign. These easily glued together, and taking a suggestion from earlier, I did not cut off the extra pieces found that they make good supports and/or help attach each section together so no wastage. The result is a shallow (~ 39 cm depth) horn.
It's an improvement, per Weltersys's comment, I can see the tweeter in this one
Yet another thread to read
Travesty 2.0 was made last night; this one in coroplast + hot glue vice foam board. After wasting Saturday modelling in Hornresp I took the lazy way out (usually I do) and said WTF, just take my most common sign size (24x18") and ....
I settled on a mouth size of 24" square. For simplicity I just measured for an 8x8 cm throat, so just cut a trapezoid from each sign. These easily glued together, and taking a suggestion from earlier, I did not cut off the extra pieces found that they make good supports and/or help attach each section together so no wastage. The result is a shallow (~ 39 cm depth) horn.
It's an improvement, per Weltersys's comment, I can see the tweeter in this one
Added a single mid range to each today, now listening as a two-way (Guess it's now a Travesty 2.1) Now, do I run over to the grocery store before it closes and harvest some more road side signs that the new housing developer puts out every weekend? Yeah, probably
Sent from my NV570P using Tapatalk
Now, do I run over to the grocery store before it closes and harvest some more road side signs that the new housing developer puts out every weekend? Yeah, probably Sent from my NV570P using Tapatalk
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