Looking for suggestions on a bookshelf build

[1967cutlass]

Hi everyone, I've been looking at various bookshelf speakers such as wharfedale diamonds, elac b6, etc... But got to thinking that for the money I could probably build something better. I'm handy with wood working and soldering but inexperienced in loudspeaker design as well as somewhat unaware of what's out there for diy.

I'd like to spend less than $500 for drivers and crossover components for the pair. I'd like something that sounds neutral and clear, with good bass extension without a sub. Basically a good sounding speaker. Size wise, I can go large for a bookshelf and I'm open to ported or sealed configurations, though I'd prefer something versatile as far as position in a room. Amp power available ranges from 30-175wpc at 8ohms.

I'd like something fairly well documented so I know what to expect and don't need to do any computer simulation or electrical engineering. It's interesting I just don't have time. Anyhow, I'd like something I will be happy with long term for my vinyl system.

Any thoughts are appreciated and thanks.

 

[1967cutlass]

Any opinions on Madisound kits and how they'd compare to premade stuff?

 

[eriksquires]

Any opinions on Madisound kits and how they'd compare to premade stuff?

Depends. In general I would say the value is always pretty high compared to premade. The basic markups are usually 5x to 10x on parts alone depending on the brand. Now, whether you like a particular design, it suits your needs, etc. is a different story.

As far as I know, Madisound doesn't design any of those kits, they all come from outside sources, from speaker vendor kits like Seas, or John Zaph, or Klang Tong magazine articles so I wouldn't particularly blame or praise them for the final results.

If you really are handy with woodworking, you might want to check out one of the many Troels Gravesen / Jantzen designs, which require more advanced woodworking.

Selah Audio also offers some of their speakers as kits without cabinets.

 

[planet10]

basic markups are usually 5x to 10x on parts alone

Probably a factor of 2 or more out. 10-20x parts cost to retail.

dave

 

[eriksquires]

Probably a factor of 2 or more out. 10-20x parts cost to retail.

dave

Dave is probably close as well, but as I said, it depends on the brand. The bigger the brand, the closer to 20x or more they probably are.

The number gets worse if you consider they buy in bulk, so a driver I would pay $100 for at wholesale could be $50 to $80. Add $2 to put my name on each driver.

Then figure they will use bargain crossover parts where a DIYer would spend more and the difference goes up even more.

Here's a good example, the Sony SS-AR1.

All ScanSpeak, off the shelf drivers, and they don't even bother to use the top of the line Beryllium tweeter either. Retail is around $27,000. Decent but not their usually overwhelmingly positive review at Stereophile.

By the way, I am a huge ScanSpeak fan, I think Sony did well to choose them. That's not the point I want to make here though!

At Madisound a hobbyist like me would spend around $2,110 in speaker drivers per PAIR! So, counting the speaker drivers, the markup from hobbyist to commercial speaker is around 13x. Add in that Sony probably gets a 35% discount and Dave is then exactly right, it's 20:1.

Of course, this doesn't count labor, lumber or crossover components, usually the crossover is not shown when they spend as little as possible on them.


Best,


Erik

 

[giralfino]

All this economic considerations fail if we are considering sub-500$ speakers.
In this case the big names buy thousands of parts (drivers and components), and pay for them a fraction of what a single customer like you and me would pay.
More or less a 500$ (retail) speaker contains probably components for 100-150$ including wood (MDF), the rest is marketing, distribution, development and obviously profit. The problem is, the same components would cost us double than that, and on top we'll pay also for fancy finishing (veneer, paint), so the total cost will be near the retail price of the equivalent speaker. And if you don't like the sound of this DIY speaker the resell value is low, however if you buy used the 500$ commercial speaker you'll pay probably 250-300$ (not more than your DIY attempt, probably less), and retain full resell value. So for this speaker cost range the best value is to buy an used commercial speaker. I'm not advocating against DIY, but only pointing that the cost benefit is not huge (if at all) for low end speakers.
Things change considerably for hi-end speakers, where the development cost has to be spread over few speakers, and the low number of speakers sold means also less discount on parts, and also the manufacturing cost will be high: the piano black example posted is probably hand made or hand finished.

Ralf

 

[1967cutlass]

Thanks for the info its interesting stuff. Now I'm strongly considering a few bagby designs like the mandolin and continuum.

 

[zman01]

1967cutlass,

Both designs look good. From the designer's notes I can gather that the Mandolin will go deeper and play louder.

 

[SufferingArtist]

FWIW...
Zaph SR71 may just fit your budget:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgaUQO4lvII

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/213397-zaph-audio-za-sr71-review.html

https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph|audio-sr71-kit-pair-parts-only/

...depending on what you use for cabinets, or how you got them.

 

[Steven-H]

May I suggest something like this:
Jordan Eikona - E J Jordan Designs

I build a bookshelf using the older JX25's and a ribbon speaker. Shocking amount of range and silky smooth. I have the newer Eikona's in a MTL setup and they don't need the ribbon. Get a pair of Eikona's and put them in this enclosure and a port- you won't be disappointed!

Dayton Audio TWC-0.50BK 0.50 cu. ft. 2-Way Curved Speaker Cabinet Gloss Black

 

[cocoapuffs]

All this economic considerations fail if we are considering sub-500$ speakers.
In this case the big names buy thousands of parts (drivers and components), and pay for them a fraction of what a single customer like you and me would pay.
More or less a 500$ (retail) speaker contains probably components for 100-150$ including wood (MDF), the rest is marketing, distribution, development and obviously profit. The problem is, the same components would cost us double than that, and on top we'll pay also for fancy finishing (veneer, paint), so the total cost will be near the retail price of the equivalent speaker. And if you don't like the sound of this DIY speaker the resell value is low, however if you buy used the 500$ commercial speaker you'll pay probably 250-300$ (not more than your DIY attempt, probably less), and retain full resell value. So for this speaker cost range the best value is to buy an used commercial speaker. I'm not advocating against DIY, but only pointing that the cost benefit is not huge (if at all) for low end speakers.
Things change considerably for hi-end speakers, where the development cost has to be spread over few speakers, and the low number of speakers sold means also less discount on parts, and also the manufacturing cost will be high: the piano black example posted is probably hand made or hand finished.

Ralf

I'm 100% with giralfino here.
If you compare the Zaph SR-71 to the Audioengine A2, 95% of people would probably say your DIY kit is superior and I'd agree. But tooling costs and finishing costs add up rapidly and your finished kit might not end up being so cheap. The cost of primer, primer-hardener,paint and top coat always runs me nearly $300.

(This might totally off but...) I also suspect that a lot of DIYers would be surprised when they hear your typical $500 active monitor. Adam audio, Emotiva etc. etc. I used to think that DIY was automatically a value proposition but I've been proven wrong multiple times. For instance, the SR-71 which costs $400-500 to build is very similar to the Ascend CMT-340SE which is an MTM also using the 27TDFC(I opened it) and I can verify that in a studio, they sound much more similar than not, barring situations where the MTM dispersion pattern can be made obvious.

IMO, DIY only becomes a value proposition when you start getting into the land of ridiculousness i.e >$1.5k.
DIYers can see when you've thrown in an air-circ on a $27k loudspeaker, or you're charging $5k for a 2 way SEAS excel with birch laminate.
If you're comparing accuton/illuminator/excel/revelator kits with their equivalent commercially available loudspeakers, yes the kits are orders of magnitude better value propositions!

But I'm really am not so sure at the $500 level. I'm always impressed by some $500 2-ways, such as the Emotiva Airmotiv 6, everytime I hear it. I wouldn't at all be surprised if the SR-71 is outperformed by it. The SR71 is a great kit, but the Emotiva and the Adam F5 are also great studio monitors. And on the used market, I've seen the PSB Synchrony 1B sell for $700 on ebay. Soundstage measurements of the smaller 2B are glowing and I don't how you're going to beat that unless your construction cost, finishing costs, and time are worth nearly nothing. Two SS revelators + XT25 tweeters and crossovers will run you nearly $600.

If you're out for a fantastic learning experience which might change the way you look at some loudspeakers, then yes! I'd strongly encourage you to pursue some of the kits that people are recommending. If you just want to get into DIY loudspeakers as a hobby, fantastic! Go for it! But if you're only after sound quality, you really might be better off elsewhere. Commercial speakers often have trial periods, provide instant gratification and much more importantly, they also have resale value when you upgrade. DIY, not so much.

Hope this helps.
-W