I’m looking for a midrange driver to partner with Beyma TPL-150H tweeters. My plan is to cross them over around 2kHz (1.8-2.2kHz).
The TPL has 80° horizontal dispersion so I’m thinking an 6 to 8” driver.
A “typical” 6.5” has 97° dispersion at 1.8kHz, 88°@ 2kHz, 80@2.2kHz.
A “typical” 8” has 75°@1.8kHz, 68°@2kHz, 61°@2.2kHz.
The argument for a larger driver is to get higher dynamics, to better match the TPL characteristics. The argument for a smaller driver is better dispersion match and higher xo point.
The system will be active so I have some flexibility as far as sensitivity. The TPL-150H is 102dB/W, though, so I’d rather be as close as possible to this. Tough!
The lower end shouldn’t be a big problem. The system will be a 4-way, and midbass would be taken care of by a couple of 10” drivers per side playing 80-450Hz or so.
Among 6.5” drivers these are in my short list:
- B&W FST: the weakest point seems to be sensitivity at 94dB/W. Maybe limited dynamics compared to 8” drivers? I like the sound (I have them in B&W speakers)
- PHL 1040: high 100dB/W sensitivity. No measurements available that I’m aware of, though.
- PHL 1120: 96dB/W, nice measurements http://lsv-achenbach.de/shop/product_info.php?products_id=3249&osCsid=e73b8f195bc405fdcfb4a225d3065f29
Among 8” drivers:
- B&C 8PE21
- AE TD8M: 95dB/W, low Le of 0.15mH. Haven’t seen much talk about it as midrange, though. And no measurements.
- PHL 2540 & 2520 LSV Dieter Achenbach
I guess it’s too bad Beyma doesn’t have a good 8” version of the 12P80Nd
Opinions, food for thought, recommendations are very welcomed. What do you think?
Thank you!
The TPL has 80° horizontal dispersion so I’m thinking an 6 to 8” driver.
A “typical” 6.5” has 97° dispersion at 1.8kHz, 88°@ 2kHz, 80@2.2kHz.
A “typical” 8” has 75°@1.8kHz, 68°@2kHz, 61°@2.2kHz.
The argument for a larger driver is to get higher dynamics, to better match the TPL characteristics. The argument for a smaller driver is better dispersion match and higher xo point.
The system will be active so I have some flexibility as far as sensitivity. The TPL-150H is 102dB/W, though, so I’d rather be as close as possible to this. Tough!
The lower end shouldn’t be a big problem. The system will be a 4-way, and midbass would be taken care of by a couple of 10” drivers per side playing 80-450Hz or so.
Among 6.5” drivers these are in my short list:
- B&W FST: the weakest point seems to be sensitivity at 94dB/W. Maybe limited dynamics compared to 8” drivers? I like the sound (I have them in B&W speakers)
- PHL 1040: high 100dB/W sensitivity. No measurements available that I’m aware of, though.
- PHL 1120: 96dB/W, nice measurements http://lsv-achenbach.de/shop/product_info.php?products_id=3249&osCsid=e73b8f195bc405fdcfb4a225d3065f29
Among 8” drivers:
- B&C 8PE21
- AE TD8M: 95dB/W, low Le of 0.15mH. Haven’t seen much talk about it as midrange, though. And no measurements.
- PHL 2540 & 2520 LSV Dieter Achenbach
I guess it’s too bad Beyma doesn’t have a good 8” version of the 12P80Nd
Opinions, food for thought, recommendations are very welcomed. What do you think?
Thank you!
I'm using the TPL-150H.
There have been recommendations not to cross over lower than 2400Hz due to a resonance.
I have measured a severe one centred at 1800 Hz.
I have found I need to cross at 3000Hz 18dB/octave for a completely clean response.
I have removed the rear enclosure and tried all manner of loadings.
Larger than supplied is better. I have damped it with felt and wool fibres.
Regards,
David
There have been recommendations not to cross over lower than 2400Hz due to a resonance.
I have measured a severe one centred at 1800 Hz.
I have found I need to cross at 3000Hz 18dB/octave for a completely clean response.
I have removed the rear enclosure and tried all manner of loadings.
Larger than supplied is better. I have damped it with felt and wool fibres.
Regards,
David
Thanks for the input. Had not come across that one before, although I did look into the PR170MO. I ran a couple searches for the HM210Z10 and didn't come across many comments. What sets this one apart in your view?
Looking at the frequency response I wonder about dispersion around 2kHz, and there are a few wiggles on the impedance curve in the 1.5-2.5kHz region too. Would appreciate your perspective (pun intended
) regarding if/how this affects its presentation. How high would you cross over this driver?Thanks again!
Here is my experience, I have tried the following drivers with the TPL -
supravox 215
audax pr170mo (pair per channel)
Altec 406
none of these really compared to my jbl 2482's - the altec 414's i also have came close from presence perspective
I am hoping that its a vintage driver thing and the 12P80nd's will be as good (hoping Angelo is right!) still waiting for the right versions
supravox 215
audax pr170mo (pair per channel)
Altec 406
none of these really compared to my jbl 2482's - the altec 414's i also have came close from presence perspective
I am hoping that its a vintage driver thing and the 12P80nd's will be as good (hoping Angelo is right!) still waiting for the right versions
What horn are you using on the 2482 driver and what is the range of operation for the combo? How about the bass driver, what are you using down low? Inquiring minds would like to know. Thanks.
What sets this one apart in your view?
Looking at the frequency response I wonder about dispersion around 2kHz, and there are a few wiggles on the impedance curve in the 1.5-2.5kHz region too. Would appreciate your perspective (pun intended
Thanks again!
Extremely clear sound - like a Heil-type driver.
There are some problems with linearity at the top of the driver's passband, but for the most part they are reasonably well suppressed - the "hash" that's present is almost 20 db down. Again, the sound these types of drivers produce is extremely clear.
Depending on how it interacts with your baffle it is possible to use this driver without a "filter" (electric low-pass) and match the Beyma's high-pass to the Audax's natural response (..it's very well damped). (..still, I'd probably use a filter to counteract the inductive rise of the impedance.) Also, with the exception of about 1.8 kHz the pressure loss is pretty similar at +/- 30 degrees for most of the top of its passband - so it should make for an easy horizontal polar match to the Beyma's horn.
Note: you will likely need an extended listening distance for a higher freq. crossover (Beyma's high-pass) to get the vertical polar response to integrate well. Also consider tilting the midrange (down or up) depending on the baffle placement. My suggestion would be above the Beyma - like this:
Attachments
I might add
Mr. Lewinski,
Scott G is definitely a person who's opinion I would trust.
Me ?
Well I am in the process of building some mid range speakers that actually
use the now disc. version of the HDA in the 6.5 inch size, the PR170zo
I move pretty slow these days, so it will be several weeks before the construction is complete, as it is a mighty complicated and time consuming
build.
Mr. Lewinski,
Scott G is definitely a person who's opinion I would trust.
Me ?
Well I am in the process of building some mid range speakers that actually
use the now disc. version of the HDA in the 6.5 inch size, the PR170zo
I move pretty slow these days, so it will be several weeks before the construction is complete, as it is a mighty complicated and time consuming
build.
David,
Thanks for the input. I did get suggestions to "cross the TPL much higher than the xo suggested by Beyma", but never heard anything about a severe resonance at 1800Hz or crossing over at least at 2.4kHz. Could you please share your measurements?
My xo will be digital and software based, so that it will be time-aligned and can be done very steep. The slope will be decided upon listening, but I would imagine 48dB/octave or more. At 48dB/octave and running quick numbers I think the signal will be 30dB down at 1.8kHz if the xo was set at 2.2kHz. Hopefully 30dB is enough attenuation for the resonance you mention. Yet I'm interested in learning more about it so I can better manage it.
BTW, you mention you tried all manners of loading. What worked best for you? I'd like to try a sealed chamber and a TL vs the factory design.
Regards
Looks interesting. Need to do more reading. Thank you.
Way too expensive for what it seems to deliver for my application. Plus it's only 93dB/W sensitivity...for that price...
I agree. Great drivers they seem to be, but a waste for my application.
B&C 6MDN44 works very well xo at 2kHz with Heil AMT - similar pleated diaphragm tweeter. 96 dB is about perfect match. I like the sound quality very much.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-645-bc-speakers-6mdn44-specifications-46948.pdf
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/294-645-bc-speakers-6mdn44-specifications-46948.pdf
LewinskiH01: In a (2nd August 2015, 05:43) post you noted that "I have purchased Beyma TPL-150H for tweeters. I also have the the Hypex amps I'll use with the midbass, the subwoofers, and the crossover.
==========================
Have you listened to your TPL-150H at a few different Xover frequencies from 1400Hz to 2000Hz?
------Can you delay your purchase until 12P80Nd_v2 +TPL-150H test results from vinylnvalves?
Using a "special" 10" - 12" midbass covering ~100Hz up to 1400-1600Hz removes crossover CRAP from the vocal range. Your plan is to put a crossover at 450Hz. 440Hz is middle A .... every voice.... every instrument tunes to middle A. Most TPL-150H designs accept minor artifacts from a low'ish tweeter crossover frequency to avoid a vocal range Xover. It has been demonstrated that a few "special" 10"-12" midbass produce the 80degree polar response to match the TPL-150H around 1400-1600Hz and also produce the effortless dynamics that the TPL was designed for.
------------------
=============
((Have you run the TPL-150H through a break-in period for the pleated diaphragm? A slow, medium power sweep of something like a 1200Hz up 20Khz. You can include a series cap (maybe 100uF) for safety.
Have you downloaded free measurement S/W like HOLM to both develop your measurement skills and obtain SPL graphs of your TPL's?))
==========================
Have you listened to your TPL-150H at a few different Xover frequencies from 1400Hz to 2000Hz?
------Can you delay your purchase until 12P80Nd_v2 +TPL-150H test results from vinylnvalves?
Using a "special" 10" - 12" midbass covering ~100Hz up to 1400-1600Hz removes crossover CRAP from the vocal range. Your plan is to put a crossover at 450Hz. 440Hz is middle A .... every voice.... every instrument tunes to middle A. Most TPL-150H designs accept minor artifacts from a low'ish tweeter crossover frequency to avoid a vocal range Xover. It has been demonstrated that a few "special" 10"-12" midbass produce the 80degree polar response to match the TPL-150H around 1400-1600Hz and also produce the effortless dynamics that the TPL was designed for.
------------------
=============
((Have you run the TPL-150H through a break-in period for the pleated diaphragm? A slow, medium power sweep of something like a 1200Hz up 20Khz. You can include a series cap (maybe 100uF) for safety.
Have you downloaded free measurement S/W like HOLM to both develop your measurement skills and obtain SPL graphs of your TPL's?))
Hi,
I have done some measurement on the TPL-150 Diaphram, and can also confirm a quite severe resonance at 1800Hz. you can have a look at some measurements I've done here(Sorry in danish):
HIFI4ALL Forum: Lyd laboratoriet (forvrængning)
I tried to dampen it in several ways but didn't really succeed. (look at the next pages)
With a sharp digital crossover, it's not a showstopper though
Lgrau probably shows detail better than Beyma themselves.
I'm using an 18sound 8NM610 as a midrange which works very well but is discontinued.
My experiments show that the felt across the magnet is best removed if the rest of the chamber is improved.
Covering every wall with thick felt, and then a choice of stuffing gives results almost as good as the fancy rear enclosures I trialled.
I also tried damping the horn with plasticine- no measurable or audible difference.
I'm using an 18sound 8NM610 as a midrange which works very well but is discontinued.
My experiments show that the felt across the magnet is best removed if the rest of the chamber is improved.
Covering every wall with thick felt, and then a choice of stuffing gives results almost as good as the fancy rear enclosures I trialled.
I also tried damping the horn with plasticine- no measurable or audible difference.
Consider a pair of 4ohm Faital 3fe22's. 6 in high, 3 in wide, together 94dB...
You might find better dispersion match than a single driver of 6 to 8 width.
http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/3FE22/4/3FE22_datasheet_4.pdf
You might find better dispersion match than a single driver of 6 to 8 width.
http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/3FE22/4/3FE22_datasheet_4.pdf
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I'm not in the US. I could source from there, though.
Yes, AE makes a 6", but not sure I really want a 6" vs an 8". Actually I haven't seen comments regarding this point. Thoughts?
Maybe an extraneous seductive 99dB, 5" driver.
http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/M5N8-80/8/M5N8-80_datasheet_8.pdf
Kind of goes against what (#14) LineSource said.
http://www.faitalpro.com/products/files/M5N8-80/8/M5N8-80_datasheet_8.pdf
Kind of goes against what (#14) LineSource said.
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