I am hopeful you get a lot of information.
I have a pair of TD15H+ and TD6M's coming shortly. Answers here will save me from asking them later.
For the TD6M, 0.15cf or smaller is ideal. John from AE and I both like Roxul insulation for dampening/absorbing the internal waves. I use the green colored insulation you would use in walls to soundproof from neighboring rooms. Yes you have to buy a large bag, with 95% left over at the end.
Remember that sound absorption sometimes tricks the driver into behaving as if it's in a larger enclosure. With the TD6M you might get a hump lower down. So make sure your enclosure is small.
Remember to chamfer the inside edge of where the driver is mounted. The magnet assembly is wide, and you need to allow the backwave room to breath.
The less square the inside enclosure walls the better.
It will be interesting to see how the TD6M behave approaching 3000Hz.
For the TD12S I can give no advice. I too like sealed enclosures, but they do need a lot of power to get low. Your 800W should do fine.
I have a pair of TD15H+ and TD6M's coming shortly. Answers here will save me from asking them later.
For the TD6M, 0.15cf or smaller is ideal. John from AE and I both like Roxul insulation for dampening/absorbing the internal waves. I use the green colored insulation you would use in walls to soundproof from neighboring rooms. Yes you have to buy a large bag, with 95% left over at the end.
Remember that sound absorption sometimes tricks the driver into behaving as if it's in a larger enclosure. With the TD6M you might get a hump lower down. So make sure your enclosure is small.
Remember to chamfer the inside edge of where the driver is mounted. The magnet assembly is wide, and you need to allow the backwave room to breath.
The less square the inside enclosure walls the better.
It will be interesting to see how the TD6M behave approaching 3000Hz.
For the TD12S I can give no advice. I too like sealed enclosures, but they do need a lot of power to get low. Your 800W should do fine.
Using the TD12S woofer T/S parameters from the AES website I ran both sealed and ported box alignments.
WinISD simulation for the TD12S shows F3~69Hz in a 1.72f^3 SEALED Qtc=0.7 box volume.
WinISD simulation for the TD12S shows F3~56Hz in a 3.15f^3 SEALED Qtc=0.577 box volume.
WinISD simulation for the TD12S shows F3~48Hz in a 5.30f^3 SEALED Qtc=0.5 box volume.
WinISD simulation for the TD12S shows F3~37Hz in a 2.9f^3 PORTED box volume.
--A sealed box alignment will require substantial equalization to reach 30Hz bass...attached
--You could build a 3cuft PORTED box and plug the port for Qtc=0.577 SEALED. Flexible options.
Using the TD6M midrange T/S parameters from the AES website I ran three different SEALED box volumes which illustrate the SPL/freq shape for:
Qtc = 0.7 Maximal flat Butterworth alignment 0.18f^3 F3~152Hz
Qtc = 0.577 Minimal ripple Bessel alignment 0.37f^3 F3~122Hz
Qtc = 0.5 Critically Damped alignment 0.76f^3 F3~104Hz
The Qtc=0.7 is the most common because it simplifies Butterworth and LR crossover slopes, and also blends with the efficient Qtc=0.7 woofer alignment. You can hear a difference if you experiment with box volume during your build.
Hope this data helps your design work.
Building an attractive TMW cabinet with a 12" woofer will be a challenge. FAT BOTTOM
Do you have any early cabinet sketch ideas?
WinISD simulation for the TD12S shows F3~69Hz in a 1.72f^3 SEALED Qtc=0.7 box volume.
WinISD simulation for the TD12S shows F3~56Hz in a 3.15f^3 SEALED Qtc=0.577 box volume.
WinISD simulation for the TD12S shows F3~48Hz in a 5.30f^3 SEALED Qtc=0.5 box volume.
WinISD simulation for the TD12S shows F3~37Hz in a 2.9f^3 PORTED box volume.
--A sealed box alignment will require substantial equalization to reach 30Hz bass...attached
--You could build a 3cuft PORTED box and plug the port for Qtc=0.577 SEALED. Flexible options.
Using the TD6M midrange T/S parameters from the AES website I ran three different SEALED box volumes which illustrate the SPL/freq shape for:
Qtc = 0.7 Maximal flat Butterworth alignment 0.18f^3 F3~152Hz
Qtc = 0.577 Minimal ripple Bessel alignment 0.37f^3 F3~122Hz
Qtc = 0.5 Critically Damped alignment 0.76f^3 F3~104Hz
The Qtc=0.7 is the most common because it simplifies Butterworth and LR crossover slopes, and also blends with the efficient Qtc=0.7 woofer alignment. You can hear a difference if you experiment with box volume during your build.
Hope this data helps your design work.
Building an attractive TMW cabinet with a 12" woofer will be a challenge. FAT BOTTOM
Do you have any early cabinet sketch ideas?
Attachments
My Adcom GFA-565 mono blocks are about 380 real high current watts each dampening factor is 1000. I also have a pair of Altec 9440A amps which are 800 real watts brided mono into 8 ohms with a dampening factor of 800.ThanksPS if the AE TD12S in not capable of reaching 40hz with authority I have a pair of dayton audio RSS315HFA-8 subs that I use for the low end say 60-80hz down. Your opinions please. Thanks again.
Sadly, the very low Zout of your amps makes the TD12S not really suitable for a sealed box speaker. You could make a proper sealed box using a tube amp with Zout around 3 ohm (it should be some 3.81f^3 for F3 = 45 Hz and Qt=0.79). Forget the term damping factor, there is nothing to damp. It's all about correct alignment.
As suggested by LineSource, I think a ported box is better in your case.
Thanks
Sealed enclosures for my AE TD12s & AE TD6m
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.by dj sugafree » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:08 pm
Hello friends, my name is DJ Sugafree. I purchased a pr of TD12S and a pr. of TD6M transducers. I am requesting help with the enclosure for each speaker I really prefer sealed enclosures for tight, deep, and musical bass. My goal is to build the best 3 way possible. My tweeter is the Audax TW025A20 1" metal dome. All three speakers are of 93db 1watt at 1 meter. My thoughts are to run the TD12S woofers from 40hz to 320-400hz crossed over to the TD6M form 320-400hz to 2500-2860hz crossed to the Audax tweeter at 2500-2860hz and up. My thinking is that each speaker should only cover about 3 octaves. I would like to pick the brains of you more experienced DIY guys on size and shape (how deep should to eliminate the standing wave & should it be rectangle or curved going back) of the enclosures that would work best to get the desired performance that is expected from AE speakers. I already have baltic birch plywood and MFD, rockwool, tight bond glue, Dynamat barrier dampening, & quiet kote spray from my last build. I have a minidsp 4x10HD with the mic and 4x10 plug in. I will be tri-amping the whole system. I have high current Adcom solid state amps gfa-565 mono pair for the woofers, gfa-555 stereo for the mids, & a gfa-535II for the tweeters all of which have the elite mods & upgraded by Big Sky Audio LLP & I also have a pair of Will Vincent's super dyna MKIII built tube amps for the mids if needed. My Pre-amp is the Mcintosh C-500 solid state version. I am running two dedicated lines to my 2 channel room etc... So what i'm trying to say is I am pretty versatile when it comes to amplification. I just want to be able to represent Acoustic Elegance speakers in a world class way. I have a lot of Altec and Klipsch fans here in Oklahoma that think I waste my money on AE speakers. LETS SHOW THEM! Thanks to all that contributes to this project. Thanks again.An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.Also how would the apollo upgrage on the TD12S benefit me in my setup is it just the power compression since i'm running them up to about 400hz. My Adcom GFA-565 mono blocks are about 380 real high current watts each dampening factor is 1000. I also have a pair of Altec 9440A amps which are 800 real watts brided mono into 8 ohms with a dampening factor of 800.Thanks
2.9 cu ft ported
Not at this time. I am thinking more and more about doing a 2.9 cu ft ported. Looks like it would make more since, that way I could go back and forth between ported and pluging the port. What type of port do you recommend slot or tube type. Your knowledge is deeply appreciated. Thanks please help me out my friend.
cabinets sketches
No some ideas on cabinet design and sketches are deeply appreciated.
I'm kind of hoping you experiment and report back.
I will start my build with a slot port. According to John at AE, this yields better results than round ports.
As I said previously, I too am a sealed enclosure listener. If my slot port doesn't work, dual passive radiators either side of the enclosure will be my next step.
If you go to Acoustic Elegance' website, they have a 'faq' on passive radiators. A common observation is that passive radiators 'sound' closer to a sealed enclosure alignment, I think.
I will start my build with a slot port. According to John at AE, this yields better results than round ports.
As I said previously, I too am a sealed enclosure listener. If my slot port doesn't work, dual passive radiators either side of the enclosure will be my next step.
If you go to Acoustic Elegance' website, they have a 'faq' on passive radiators. A common observation is that passive radiators 'sound' closer to a sealed enclosure alignment, I think.
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port or passive radiator
Yes, I have talked to John and he really doesn't think that I will need Passive R. to get down to 40hz. He said just use the minidsp 4x10HD and EQ. I just trying to get as close as possible to 40hz so that less EQ is needed which in turn means more xmax. Another option is to do a transmission line like PMC, ATC and some of the other brands that are known for the best bass in the industry use. I have heard that it is harded to build a TL. Do you have any experience with TL.
As you were talking about the Apollo up-grade you might ask if they take back your TD12's for a pair of LO12 that has the same 93 dB efficiency.
If your target is F3 as close as possible to 40Hz using a sealed box, with your amps, the LO12 is clearly a better choice. However efficiency and low F3 mean big box. With the LO12 you would need some 150 liters to get F3 = 45Hz.
If you want a much smaller box you have to give up some efficiency. I can see there is the SBP series which is specifically designed for sealed box. At the end of the day 88 dB/1W is not bad at all having hundreds of watts and the SBP12 would work with "only" 90 liters. You would get F3 = 35 Hz. With 14 mm peak linear excursion you can drive it to thunderous levels anyway.
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Fkeller, Consider a clone of the Pass Labs SR-2 or Avalon with ~3cuft for the TD12S supporting both sealed and ported options.
------why----
If you have a modest volume room, a sealed box TD12S with MiniDSP bass extension plus room equalization will produce the best total listening experience, at the cost of ~ 300watts into the TD12S for loud deep bass(10x power boost at 30Hz).
If you have a large room, you will need a subwoofer(s) for under 60Hz, so put the TD12S in a sealed box and transfer the 60Hz sub-bass duty when you have a subwoofer.
If you have a medium size room, a ported TD12S is simple 3-way satisfaction.
A large volume TL design makes sense only if you never plan to equalize for deep bass or room modes, or never plan to add a subwoofer
---------
Cabinet design with MiniDSP:
1) MiniDSP handles time alignment delays.
2) Cabinet shape can focus on edge diffraction and C-to-C lobe issues.
...large radius edges(1.5" router or 3" MDF rounds)
...multi-angle beveled edges (Avalon or Pass Labs)
...sphere for TM (B&W)
3) Butt tweeter to midrange. Trim T face plate if possible
...MiniDSP cannot help C-to-C lobe issues
4) MiniDSP provides strong support for LR4 and Butterworth
...Symmetrical acoustic LR4 is best first experiment
5) Single TMW cabinet allows woofer to use volume around TD6M midrange box. Smaller total size.
6) For the freq range of the TD12S, a round port with inside and outside radius is the best DIY choice.
...several supporting tech papers. slot ports more common with subwoofers and "area restricted" front baffles.
...For the cost of two large passive radiators for the TD12s, you can buy a great 15" or 18" woofer.
The SR-2 design from Pass Labs and a flat baffle Avalon style have modest construction complexity and popular style.
------why----
If you have a modest volume room, a sealed box TD12S with MiniDSP bass extension plus room equalization will produce the best total listening experience, at the cost of ~ 300watts into the TD12S for loud deep bass(10x power boost at 30Hz).
If you have a large room, you will need a subwoofer(s) for under 60Hz, so put the TD12S in a sealed box and transfer the 60Hz sub-bass duty when you have a subwoofer.
If you have a medium size room, a ported TD12S is simple 3-way satisfaction.
A large volume TL design makes sense only if you never plan to equalize for deep bass or room modes, or never plan to add a subwoofer
---------
Cabinet design with MiniDSP:
1) MiniDSP handles time alignment delays.
2) Cabinet shape can focus on edge diffraction and C-to-C lobe issues.
...large radius edges(1.5" router or 3" MDF rounds)
...multi-angle beveled edges (Avalon or Pass Labs)
...sphere for TM (B&W)
3) Butt tweeter to midrange. Trim T face plate if possible
...MiniDSP cannot help C-to-C lobe issues
4) MiniDSP provides strong support for LR4 and Butterworth
...Symmetrical acoustic LR4 is best first experiment
5) Single TMW cabinet allows woofer to use volume around TD6M midrange box. Smaller total size.
6) For the freq range of the TD12S, a round port with inside and outside radius is the best DIY choice.
...several supporting tech papers. slot ports more common with subwoofers and "area restricted" front baffles.
...For the cost of two large passive radiators for the TD12s, you can buy a great 15" or 18" woofer.
The SR-2 design from Pass Labs and a flat baffle Avalon style have modest construction complexity and popular style.
Attachments
Simple front baffle screw-in option for ported vs. different volume sealed alignments. A light material like styrofoam could be used to adjust the internal sealed volume for Qtc tuning options.
Review earlier post with 10X bass power requirement difference between equalized sealed vs. ported. You never know when you might want to take this speaker off of the MiniDSP and use a passive Xover for single amp operation. Kids go to college. You might get rich and put these in the bedroom. TD6M + TD12S = lifetime $peaker.
Review earlier post with 10X bass power requirement difference between equalized sealed vs. ported. You never know when you might want to take this speaker off of the MiniDSP and use a passive Xover for single amp operation. Kids go to college. You might get rich and put these in the bedroom. TD6M + TD12S = lifetime $peaker.
Attachments
A great place to start is Troels Gravesen' website. More builds than you can read.
Start here SEAS_NEXT4 . The dual woofers can be replaced by your single TD12. He say's this is one of his best builds.
Start here SEAS_NEXT4 . The dual woofers can be replaced by your single TD12. He say's this is one of his best builds.
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