I need an opinion from experts on speakers.
I have the sig 800 and I would like to update the tweeter to the new diamond used on the 800D.
Comparing the two service manuals the woofer and midrange have same exact crossover with a slightly different cutoff frequency on the mids but a different network for the tweeters.
Would it work well if I change tweeter and relative crossover for mids and highs?
Would I have any significant benefit by upgrading to that tweeter?
After all I have read all over how this new tweeter improved the performance over the past nautilus series!
Thanks.
I have the sig 800 and I would like to update the tweeter to the new diamond used on the 800D.
Comparing the two service manuals the woofer and midrange have same exact crossover with a slightly different cutoff frequency on the mids but a different network for the tweeters.
Would it work well if I change tweeter and relative crossover for mids and highs?
Would I have any significant benefit by upgrading to that tweeter?
After all I have read all over how this new tweeter improved the performance over the past nautilus series!
Thanks.
Stefano,
did the mid driver and cabin still remaine the same? If not, it could make things
more difficult. Just guessing, but there's some chance it'll work at least.
Best to take a listen on yourself.
What about the cost of two diamond tweeters?
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You would be better off asking in the multiway forum. However:
How can it be the same XO on the mids if they have a different cutoff (not a cutoff, but corner) frequency?
If by that you mean using the diamond tweeter with the crossover altered per the service manual to match the one from that model, then yes, assuming there are no other differences between the models in terms of drive units, cabinet etc., then it will work the same as if it had been built that way originally.
Only you can know the answer to that one, so as was suggested above, you really need to hear a pair to make that call.
How can it be the same XO on the mids if they have a different cutoff (not a cutoff, but corner) frequency?
If by that you mean using the diamond tweeter with the crossover altered per the service manual to match the one from that model, then yes, assuming there are no other differences between the models in terms of drive units, cabinet etc., then it will work the same as if it had been built that way originally.
Only you can know the answer to that one, so as was suggested above, you really need to hear a pair to make that call.
Tweeters with full assembly I believe are around $1500 each. I would have to change completely the crossover for the highs and adjust/change crossover for mids too.
Assuming the midrange is the same which in fact accordingly to readings I have done around the net seems to be pretty much the same component, if the alignment of the tweeter on the D are the same on mine, then I think it should work exactly like on the original Ds.
But if they changed the shape a bit of the big head and now the hole for tweeter is let's say 1,2 cm more toward the back, then alignment is different and perhaps it wouldn't work.
Yes, the expense to upgrade wouldn't be small at all, that is why I would like to make sure that by doing this it would work as it supposed to.
As far as listening the D is concerned, I have read enough around that shows how the new tweeter is superior and produces a better sound, plus I trust the work of a reputable company such as B&W and if the replaced the already excellent nautilus tweeter with this, I am sure it is for the best.
Assuming the midrange is the same which in fact accordingly to readings I have done around the net seems to be pretty much the same component, if the alignment of the tweeter on the D are the same on mine, then I think it should work exactly like on the original Ds.
But if they changed the shape a bit of the big head and now the hole for tweeter is let's say 1,2 cm more toward the back, then alignment is different and perhaps it wouldn't work.
Yes, the expense to upgrade wouldn't be small at all, that is why I would like to make sure that by doing this it would work as it supposed to.
As far as listening the D is concerned, I have read enough around that shows how the new tweeter is superior and produces a better sound, plus I trust the work of a reputable company such as B&W and if the replaced the already excellent nautilus tweeter with this, I am sure it is for the best.
I own a pair of 800 Diamonds but I'm also very familiar with the sound from the Signatures because a good friend of mine owns a pair.
Personally, I wouldn't bother trying to upgrade them to diamond status. Firstly, the differences in sound are mostly due to the M-T crossover design - which you would be unable to change anyway. The 800 diamonds employ a first order filter on the tweeter, and to achieve it the tweeter is moved a half wave length forward (@ 4000Hz), so if you replicated the crossover changes you would be forced to reverse the tweeter polarity to keep it phase coherent through the crossover region.
Secondly, the signature tweeter is an excellent tweeter.
Thirdly, the Signature version sounds better than the Diamond anyway - due to the crossover design.
But, but, but, it's new and improved, and the difference from primary breakup at 70K vs 30K is something even - or actually, only - a schoolkid could hear.
I've briefly heard both the metal and diamond tweeters in local dealer's showroom, and frankly would be inclined to spend that magnitude of system upgrade funds further upstream.
More to the direct question, there's quite possibly more going on in the respective XO circuits for the two tweeters than just the simple first order roll-off - Zobel / notch filter, etc, the details of which might be hard to nail down.
I've briefly heard both the metal and diamond tweeters in local dealer's showroom, and frankly would be inclined to spend that magnitude of system upgrade funds further upstream.
More to the direct question, there's quite possibly more going on in the respective XO circuits for the two tweeters than just the simple first order roll-off - Zobel / notch filter, etc, the details of which might be hard to nail down.
The 800 diamonds crossover is a joke. Horrible on and off axis responses. 6.5" used up way too high, too shallow slopes and with unnotched resonances from the FST. A nice 4th order LW at 2kHz, time aligned via the tweeter pod distance would sound far better and be far more accurate.
From memory the 800 sig has a much better xover.
Edit - I spoke too soon. The 800 sig isn't that great either, the 3.5kHz resonance of the FST is let run free, it's the original 801 that has the more complex xover.
From memory the 800 sig has a much better xover.
Edit - I spoke too soon. The 800 sig isn't that great either, the 3.5kHz resonance of the FST is let run free, it's the original 801 that has the more complex xover.
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I've owned the old 801 too, fwiw, and imho the new 800 diamond is a much better speaker overall. The FST resonance is controlled enough not to intrude so it's not the main problem. IMHO the new xo is slightly flawed because the tweeter has been moved forward by a half wavelength, rather than connected in anti phase. This means that it's only phase inverted at exactly the crossover frequency, resulting in a slightly jagged response.
To be fair though the response isn't too bad at 15 degrees off axis and minus 5 degrees, but the speaker is still lacking the overall smoothness of previous models.
You can download the schematics from here: B&W Group North America Service & Support - Service Manuals
I've already run some simulations.
Art- I must say this is a level of technical support that is wonderful, and a bit surprising to see.
Not being an XO boffin, I'd leave it to those who are to assess the relative merits of the filter networks, and to second-guess B&W's engineering staff as to the efficacy / tailoring of each to the parameters of its respective drivers.
Not being an XO boffin, I'd leave it to those who are to assess the relative merits of the filter networks, and to second-guess B&W's engineering staff as to the efficacy / tailoring of each to the parameters of its respective drivers.
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oh interesting, I didn't know they had moved the tweeter forward by half wavelength, which could, like you said, also been achieved by swapping phase.
You are obviously more competent than me on the speaker design, so I am throwing it out there for you to comment if you wish: what is the difference between moving the tweeter half wave length or reversing phase? There must obviously be a reason for doing that instead of the other...which also forced them to change and re-tool the head of the speaker, which is obviously a disadvantage from a manufacturing standpoint and leads me to believe they really thought it was a great advantage to go the extra mile to achieve the new design.
To comment on the diamond vs signature, I have received the same answer from B&W. I have contacted them and asked them if I could change tweeter and they told me to not bother as the Signature will sound better, buy if I wanted I could have simply bought the tweeter and the crossover and returned it if I didn't like it. I had found that really odd as I was convinced that diamond tweeter was the coolest thing on earth!!
When you also talk about the crossover being a disadvantage over the previous version, I have problems accepting that,simply because a 1th order in my opinion, must be better than a 2nd.
To achieve a 1th order more thoughts had to be invested on the transducer's design, but again I am not in any position to comment speaker design.
Thank you very much for reviving my old thread I found your answers really enjoyable.
Hi Stephanoo,
Fwiw, I'm a telco engineer, not a speaker designer, so the reasons for the design changes taken by the B&W design team mostly elude me - with my basic electronics eng background.
Moving the tweeter forward by a few cm does obviously restore phase coherence, but only at a single frequency, so the design team must have deemed that it was more important to achieve 'absolute phase' ahead of textbook phase coherence, but I can't help thinking that it's yet another case of the marketing team over-ruling the engineering team.
Having said all of that the, the 800 Diamonds do still measure reasonably 'flat' on the reference axis, and in the right room they do still sound excellent, but the Signature's probably sound consistently better (more accurate) in typical listening environments.
Down the track I might experiment with a DEQX crossover, which will allow me to move the tweeter crossover frequency down to 2kHz, giving a better polar response and also removing the bump at 3.5kHz from the FST mid, and the bump at 600Hz from the passive crossover itself.
Thank you Art! Regarding changes to the crossover, I recall an article of a magazine on the 805Diamond where they were trying to redo the crossover making the response completely flat, because they felt like you did, that it lacked of proper response.
Long story short, the final result was that, although response was textbook, sound-wise it had lost significantly; they all ended up agreeing upon the fact that original crossover was designed to obtain max sonic performance rather than textbook frequency response.
I was also thinking about your comment regarding Sig800 vs. 800 Diamond and I am still shocked at the fact that Sig800 would sound better although it doesn't have the new low drivers in fiber but rather has paper woofers and also has the old style signature tweeter rather than the precious Diamond tweeter.
On paper, the 800 Diamond and all the diamond series should be appreciatively better than the older Sig800, but you seem to report a different story when it comes to listening tests.
I can voice in for the 805 as I have recently had the opportunity to compare the N800 and the 800Diamond.
I found the N805 to have same bass articulation and speed as 805 Diamond, however I didn't feel the mid-highs on the Diamond was as smooth as on the Nautilus series; I found the Diamond 805 less natural sounding with less flow-sound type compared to the old N805.
However, I had also compared the Sig805 to the N805 in the past and surprisingly, the difference was quite large. I really don't understand the reason as the two series really and truly have all the same components.
To me the quality I have heard on the signature remains quite a mystery as to me the Nautilus should sound just alike.
In the other end, it is surprisingly that a new and improved technology Diamond with better parts better everything doesn't leave not even the "simple" Nautilus in the dust!
I just don't get it!!!
Long story short, the final result was that, although response was textbook, sound-wise it had lost significantly; they all ended up agreeing upon the fact that original crossover was designed to obtain max sonic performance rather than textbook frequency response.
I was also thinking about your comment regarding Sig800 vs. 800 Diamond and I am still shocked at the fact that Sig800 would sound better although it doesn't have the new low drivers in fiber but rather has paper woofers and also has the old style signature tweeter rather than the precious Diamond tweeter.
On paper, the 800 Diamond and all the diamond series should be appreciatively better than the older Sig800, but you seem to report a different story when it comes to listening tests.
I can voice in for the 805 as I have recently had the opportunity to compare the N800 and the 800Diamond.
I found the N805 to have same bass articulation and speed as 805 Diamond, however I didn't feel the mid-highs on the Diamond was as smooth as on the Nautilus series; I found the Diamond 805 less natural sounding with less flow-sound type compared to the old N805.
However, I had also compared the Sig805 to the N805 in the past and surprisingly, the difference was quite large. I really don't understand the reason as the two series really and truly have all the same components.
To me the quality I have heard on the signature remains quite a mystery as to me the Nautilus should sound just alike.
In the other end, it is surprisingly that a new and improved technology Diamond with better parts better everything doesn't leave not even the "simple" Nautilus in the dust!
I just don't get it!!!
I've spent a lot of time working with B&W speakers
I don't like their crossovers. I would have always described them as "soft" sounding, they certainly arn't phase coherent, or accurate, and have a "voicing".
This in itself isn'ta bad thing, they have a unique sound which is nice, and easy to listen to, and I can enjoy listening to them.
On the other hand, they DO colour the sound, they aren't accurate and the design mantras are getting long in the tooth, my main hope with speakers is to bring the musician into my home, I have other speakers that do this much more reliably than b&w
All that said, I think the midrange drivers they make sound fantastic, and can be taken very high with ease.
But yes, the xo is a joke. For the price of diamond tweeters you could have a dedicated external xo made by a pro with full tech report... a much better option.
phase coherent, flat impedance, time aligned, flat FR and lower distortion means a less "nice" sounding speaker, but puts you in the realms or true accuracy and for me long term enjoyment of my music, or you can waste money on diamond tweeters for no real reason... biwers drivers are truly excellent