double 12pe32 = that would be a good one - my house is rickety so the floors and walls are somewhat transparent at LF - - maybe David will tell how to fudge "3 pi"
here's another compound with a 4:1 horn volume and 50Hz tuning loaded with M151 - dunno if the 50cm mouth spacing I picked would be realistic or not
here's another compound with a 4:1 horn volume and 50Hz tuning loaded with M151 - dunno if the 50cm mouth spacing I picked would be realistic or not
there probably would be some sort of dip with 2x2 - but then again there's the floor mirror image to consider - what's the best mouth aspect for a mid-bass horn which sits on a floor - ?
DJK's Grave marker
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/189427260/dennis-j-kleitsch
here's a 0.83 La Scala with 12pe32 again - about a 20 inch cube
I can't do much of anything since a new hernia popped out a couple of days ago
DJK's Grave marker
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/189427260/dennis-j-kleitsch
here's a 0.83 La Scala with 12pe32 again - about a 20 inch cube
I can't do much of anything since a new hernia popped out a couple of days ago
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Ug. Good to know when he died, ty.
Good healing to you.
Midbass ?
Not sure, djk's last mid horn (2xpe32) had a big mouth (free space) and crossed at 150hz and 1200hz (i think).
He usually cheated on the 1/4 wavelength rule and added a squeek of boost near xover.
130db, wow.
Well that could keep up with 4 x double 15 kappa pro boxes (105db each).
Hmm, aspect ratio, not square, but the large dimension on the floor.
Perhaps golden rato ?
I and djk chatted often and came to the conclusion of a 3pi for a horn on a concrete floor.
Not 4pi (free space) and not 2pi either.
So the mouth area (ideally) is half way between 4pi and 2pi.
He agreed with olson stuff, ideally a horn length is 1/4 wavelength of 1/2 octave below the mouth.
So a 100hz horn should be 1/4 wavelength of 75hz (3.75') from mouth to throat.
But then you need to be a wavelength away to get the bass, 10' from the horn for 100hz, 14' from the front wall you need to be away at least.
I sit like 7' currently.
Good healing to you.
Midbass ?
Not sure, djk's last mid horn (2xpe32) had a big mouth (free space) and crossed at 150hz and 1200hz (i think).
He usually cheated on the 1/4 wavelength rule and added a squeek of boost near xover.
130db, wow.
Well that could keep up with 4 x double 15 kappa pro boxes (105db each).
Hmm, aspect ratio, not square, but the large dimension on the floor.
Perhaps golden rato ?
I and djk chatted often and came to the conclusion of a 3pi for a horn on a concrete floor.
Not 4pi (free space) and not 2pi either.
So the mouth area (ideally) is half way between 4pi and 2pi.
He agreed with olson stuff, ideally a horn length is 1/4 wavelength of 1/2 octave below the mouth.
So a 100hz horn should be 1/4 wavelength of 75hz (3.75') from mouth to throat.
But then you need to be a wavelength away to get the bass, 10' from the horn for 100hz, 14' from the front wall you need to be away at least.
I sit like 7' currently.
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If I was going to use a midbass horn from 80 to approx. 300Hz would there be benefits to using a folded FH1 style over a straight Edgar style ?
I'm thinking a bit like BP boxes where the higher distortion harmonics don't make it out of the ports ( would be around the corners on a folded horn)
I have a pair of 80HZ Edgar style (EVM 15L drivers) but am wanting to build a pair of FH1's (Mainly because I like the looks of them
)
Cheers
Rob.
I'm thinking a bit like BP boxes where the higher distortion harmonics don't make it out of the ports ( would be around the corners on a folded horn)
I have a pair of 80HZ Edgar style (EVM 15L drivers) but am wanting to build a pair of FH1's (Mainly because I like the looks of them
)Cheers
Rob.
I have a pair of FH1 clones with Kappa 15LFA and they seem to measure quite flat to almost 1 kHz in room. I use them up to 600 Hz. I like the sound, but I have no comparison with a better horn. Certainly it is better than direct radiators A friend of mine had a Jealvox bass horn with a 12" speaker (Something about Jealvox speakers) and that was the thing that actually hooked me up to horns when I heard it for the first time.
A friend of mine had a Jealvox bass horn with a 12" speaker (Something about Jealvox speakers) and that was the thing that actually hooked me up to horns when I heard it for the first time.
300hz horn, folded would be fine.
Time alignment would be rough if you are into that.
Fh1, looks like a 40" horn path length, 24" x 30" mouth.
"My first impression is "where did the bass go?" "
Peavey FH-1 Cabinets - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community
80hz horn I'd say.
Time alignment would be rough if you are into that.
Fh1, looks like a 40" horn path length, 24" x 30" mouth.
"My first impression is "where did the bass go?" "
Peavey FH-1 Cabinets - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community
80hz horn I'd say.
I've got FH1 - well made but my view of them = something clunky and ineffective in the way of my playing with my Karlson toys. A K12 is cooler.
A K12 with pym1298 and tube on top is fun - better punch somehow than the horn rig (has to be largely a matter of balance) - its really impressive on a CD of the late Rudy Rosa's synth - and beats my Klipschorn there.
If a Karlson's response is neutered - smooth by use of a stub connected to the top of its front chamber - will it lose some subjective kick ? Little K's can have way too much cavity resonance around 210Hz so such a feature might help those achieve a more reasonable balance.
Two K12 plus a compact sub to 30Hz or lower could make a fun system. 200 watts per side for K12 with Kappa12a isn't too much as cone control is pretty good.
I've got one problem with a stock Karlson 12 - and that's where best to put a single vent. The distributed slit vent works well on quick transients but exhibits very high air velocities and will generate many harmonics - if driven by sine. Does some music excite those
harmonics and if so, does the slit vent work as a pyschoacoustic bass enhancement device?
As posted many times before - my Peavey FH1 outdoors. I don't think the extra 6 inches path over a Belle/LS is doing
much other than making it clunky. At least FH1 is well braced and doesn't modulate the signal like La Scala does when
the sidewalls flap.
I do like some horns - but not found the right one yet as can't build anything decent so have to rely on an expert
long distance builder who has very little spare time.
John Inlow might have the best compromise for keeping things small.
IIRC that's a stock Peavey 1504 in the FH1.
A long time ago, I bi-amped two FH1 with midhorn and tweeter horn to two 18" RJ subs
and compared that stack to one beat old throwaway Karlson 15 with an Altec horn thrown
on top - I preferred the Karlson to that 500lb mess - lol
are the narrow dips around 1200Hz from the sidewall distance of ~22.5" ?
A K12 with pym1298 and tube on top is fun - better punch somehow than the horn rig (has to be largely a matter of balance) - its really impressive on a CD of the late Rudy Rosa's synth - and beats my Klipschorn there.
If a Karlson's response is neutered - smooth by use of a stub connected to the top of its front chamber - will it lose some subjective kick ? Little K's can have way too much cavity resonance around 210Hz so such a feature might help those achieve a more reasonable balance.
Two K12 plus a compact sub to 30Hz or lower could make a fun system. 200 watts per side for K12 with Kappa12a isn't too much as cone control is pretty good.
I've got one problem with a stock Karlson 12 - and that's where best to put a single vent. The distributed slit vent works well on quick transients but exhibits very high air velocities and will generate many harmonics - if driven by sine. Does some music excite those
harmonics and if so, does the slit vent work as a pyschoacoustic bass enhancement device?
As posted many times before - my Peavey FH1 outdoors. I don't think the extra 6 inches path over a Belle/LS is doing
much other than making it clunky. At least FH1 is well braced and doesn't modulate the signal like La Scala does when
the sidewalls flap.
I do like some horns - but not found the right one yet as can't build anything decent so have to rely on an expert
long distance builder who has very little spare time.
John Inlow might have the best compromise for keeping things small.
IIRC that's a stock Peavey 1504 in the FH1.
A long time ago, I bi-amped two FH1 with midhorn and tweeter horn to two 18" RJ subs
and compared that stack to one beat old throwaway Karlson 15 with an Altec horn thrown
on top - I preferred the Karlson to that 500lb mess - lol
are the narrow dips around 1200Hz from the sidewall distance of ~22.5" ?
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Norm - maybe an interpolation "between" 2 pi and 4 pi is good enough to get a "3pi" effective loading. (my floors aren't that good)
here's a 0.8 scale University "Classic" with 12pe32 - about a 620 square inch mouth and 4.17 foot patha at that scale. Is there such a thing as a midbass horn getting to a certain size vs path vs cutoff where it sounds more like one would want from a horn (an open - easy sound) than say horn with less mouth area, lower cutoff, but a smooth graph? (then again - I'm not fond of FH1)
0.8 scaled back chamber volume would be around 40 liters - that could be tightened t reduce excursion below cutoff without much if any penalty in response.
When I first talked to DJK on the phone - maybe 1982 (?) - he had a Manta Ray midbass and explained using a lowpass to peak its power input around 1K@ (IIRC ? - I was half-drunk on beer)
here's a 0.8 scale University "Classic" with 12pe32 - about a 620 square inch mouth and 4.17 foot patha at that scale. Is there such a thing as a midbass horn getting to a certain size vs path vs cutoff where it sounds more like one would want from a horn (an open - easy sound) than say horn with less mouth area, lower cutoff, but a smooth graph? (then again - I'm not fond of FH1)
0.8 scaled back chamber volume would be around 40 liters - that could be tightened t reduce excursion below cutoff without much if any penalty in response.
When I first talked to DJK on the phone - maybe 1982 (?) - he had a Manta Ray midbass and explained using a lowpass to peak its power input around 1K@ (IIRC ? - I was half-drunk on beer)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hmm, thanks for the graphs.
Whats the compression ratio in the throat ?
Dual 8" b&c (low qts) would go higher, but hey, we are talking 12's !!!!!
Horn looks real good, 4pi has not enough mouth, we see that.
Wow 4' deep, ouch, but look at that response.
Thanks for running some "old school" rules for horns.
I see why djk kept to 150hz.
Would more mouth go flatter below 200hz in 2pi?
I assume so.
Open easy sound ?
Only djk tips i remember is lower compression ratio compression drivers, like community m200a ( 4 : 1) have a more relaxed sound.
Here in post 22 he comments on lower compression ratio in avantgarde.
The smallest size compression driver and horn?
Maybe the compression ratio magnifies distortion.
Patrick was playing with domes on horns vs compression drivers a while back.
Any who, back to the tree (bass horns).
Whats the compression ratio in the throat ?
Dual 8" b&c (low qts) would go higher, but hey, we are talking 12's !!!!!
Horn looks real good, 4pi has not enough mouth, we see that.
Wow 4' deep, ouch, but look at that response.
Thanks for running some "old school" rules for horns.
I see why djk kept to 150hz.
Would more mouth go flatter below 200hz in 2pi?
I assume so.
Open easy sound ?
Only djk tips i remember is lower compression ratio compression drivers, like community m200a ( 4 : 1) have a more relaxed sound.
Here in post 22 he comments on lower compression ratio in avantgarde.
The smallest size compression driver and horn?
Maybe the compression ratio magnifies distortion.
Patrick was playing with domes on horns vs compression drivers a while back.
Any who, back to the tree (bass horns).
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Purely subjective rambling incoming...
I built a pair of Inlow's 135hz mid-bass horns a few years ago, single 8pe21 per horn version. I built them quick and dirty as a prototype to see if I liked them enough to build a 'final' version. Well, they were so damn good I had unfinished mid-bass horns in the living room system for a few years. They are quite remarkable in their band. I used them from ~150hz - ~600hz.
He also has a design that gets down closer to 100hz:
DIY 100hz midbass horn - The Paper Horn by Inlow Sound
And some other horns there on his site as well. I suspect the 12" version sounds equally good in it's band, but haven't built any myself.
The 135hz horn isn't too long and is easier to fit into a room. I'm very lucky that I have a very large living room and can tolerate even longer mid-bass horns. So, I'm building some much larger ones at some point. Very much in the simulating and contemplating phase now, might build a very quick and dirty prototype to test in the garage late this year.
useless anecdotal subjectivity complete....
Cheers,
Gable
I built a pair of Inlow's 135hz mid-bass horns a few years ago, single 8pe21 per horn version. I built them quick and dirty as a prototype to see if I liked them enough to build a 'final' version. Well, they were so damn good I had unfinished mid-bass horns in the living room system for a few years. They are quite remarkable in their band. I used them from ~150hz - ~600hz.
He also has a design that gets down closer to 100hz:
DIY 100hz midbass horn - The Paper Horn by Inlow Sound
And some other horns there on his site as well. I suspect the 12" version sounds equally good in it's band, but haven't built any myself.
The 135hz horn isn't too long and is easier to fit into a room. I'm very lucky that I have a very large living room and can tolerate even longer mid-bass horns. So, I'm building some much larger ones at some point. Very much in the simulating and contemplating phase now, might build a very quick and dirty prototype to test in the garage late this year.
useless anecdotal subjectivity complete....
Cheers,
Gable
I remember when round wound bass guitar strings became popular - lots of ugly overtones and ate frets - I don't like that sound very much - but that helped in the days of playing though a folded horn with nothing much above 300Hz do love bass viola and sound of slapped bass viola
I think Inlow's 135Hz horn would scale 1.2 for my JBL M151 (might need a paper dustcap in place of its aluminum.
at my age and shape, might as well just wear headphones
I think Inlow's 135Hz horn would scale 1.2 for my JBL M151 (might need a paper dustcap in place of its aluminum.
at my age and shape, might as well just wear headphones
I've wondered if it would scale to a 15, M151, 2225, etc.
at my age and shape, might as well just wear headphones
But headphones can't smack you in the chest like a mid-bass horn, at least none of the headphones I own can!
Cheers,
Gable