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Pros and cons of different midbass horns
Pros and cons of different midbass horns
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Old 26th March 2019, 04:46 PM   #251
norman bates is offline norman bates  United States
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300hz horn, folded would be fine.

Time alignment would be rough if you are into that.

Fh1, looks like a 40" horn path length, 24" x 30" mouth.
"My first impression is "where did the bass go?" "
Peavey FH-1 Cabinets - Technical/Modifications - The Klipsch Audio Community

80hz horn I'd say.
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Old 26th March 2019, 04:55 PM   #252
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Pros and cons of different midbass horns
I've got FH1 - well made but my view of them = something clunky and ineffective in the way of my playing with my Karlson toys. A K12 is cooler.

A K12 with pym1298 and tube on top is fun - better punch somehow than the horn rig (has to be largely a matter of balance) - its really impressive on a CD of the late Rudy Rosa's synth - and beats my Klipschorn there.

If a Karlson's response is neutered - smooth by use of a stub connected to the top of its front chamber - will it lose some subjective kick ? Little K's can have way too much cavity resonance around 210Hz so such a feature might help those achieve a more reasonable balance.

Two K12 plus a compact sub to 30Hz or lower could make a fun system. 200 watts per side for K12 with Kappa12a isn't too much as cone control is pretty good.

I've got one problem with a stock Karlson 12 - and that's where best to put a single vent. The distributed slit vent works well on quick transients but exhibits very high air velocities and will generate many harmonics - if driven by sine. Does some music excite those
harmonics and if so, does the slit vent work as a pyschoacoustic bass enhancement device?

As posted many times before - my Peavey FH1 outdoors. I don't think the extra 6 inches path over a Belle/LS is doing
much other than making it clunky. At least FH1 is well braced and doesn't modulate the signal like La Scala does when
the sidewalls flap.

I do like some horns - but not found the right one yet as can't build anything decent so have to rely on an expert
long distance builder who has very little spare time.

John Inlow might have the best compromise for keeping things small.


IIRC that's a stock Peavey 1504 in the FH1.

A long time ago, I bi-amped two FH1 with midhorn and tweeter horn to two 18" RJ subs
and compared that stack to one beat old throwaway Karlson 15 with an Altec horn thrown
on top - I preferred the Karlson to that 500lb mess - lol

are the narrow dips around 1200Hz from the sidewall distance of ~22.5" ?

Click the image to open in full size.

Last edited by freddi; 26th March 2019 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 26th March 2019, 06:32 PM   #253
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Pros and cons of different midbass horns
Norm - maybe an interpolation "between" 2 pi and 4 pi is good enough to get a "3pi" effective loading. (my floors aren't that good)

here's a 0.8 scale University "Classic" with 12pe32 - about a 620 square inch mouth and 4.17 foot patha at that scale. Is there such a thing as a midbass horn getting to a certain size vs path vs cutoff where it sounds more like one would want from a horn (an open - easy sound) than say horn with less mouth area, lower cutoff, but a smooth graph? (then again - I'm not fond of FH1)

0.8 scaled back chamber volume would be around 40 liters - that could be tightened t reduce excursion below cutoff without much if any penalty in response.

When I first talked to DJK on the phone - maybe 1982 (?) - he had a Manta Ray midbass and explained using a lowpass to peak its power input around 1K@ (IIRC ? - I was half-drunk on beer)

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Old 26th March 2019, 06:48 PM   #254
norman bates is offline norman bates  United States
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Hmm, thanks for the graphs.
Whats the compression ratio in the throat ?
Dual 8" b&c (low qts) would go higher, but hey, we are talking 12's !!!!!

Horn looks real good, 4pi has not enough mouth, we see that.
Wow 4' deep, ouch, but look at that response.
Thanks for running some "old school" rules for horns.

I see why djk kept to 150hz.
Would more mouth go flatter below 200hz in 2pi?
I assume so.

Open easy sound ?

Only djk tips i remember is lower compression ratio compression drivers, like community m200a ( 4 : 1) have a more relaxed sound.
Here in post 22 he comments on lower compression ratio in avantgarde.
The smallest size compression driver and horn?

Maybe the compression ratio magnifies distortion.
Patrick was playing with domes on horns vs compression drivers a while back.

Any who, back to the tree (bass horns).

Last edited by norman bates; 26th March 2019 at 06:59 PM.
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Old 26th March 2019, 07:06 PM   #255
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Pros and cons of different midbass horns
flaring the final 31.7cm section of that sim from a 25x25 inch mouth to 36x36 does look better in 4 pi

would such a 100Hz or so o horn augmented with a sub "potentially sound better" than some other approaches with compromised mouth size ? - or are there too many variables to consider ?

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Old 26th March 2019, 07:28 PM   #256
RobWells is offline RobWells  United Kingdom
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Thanks for the replies.

Rob.
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Old 26th March 2019, 07:43 PM   #257
pcgab is offline pcgab  United States
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Pros and cons of different midbass horns
Purely subjective rambling incoming...

I built a pair of Inlow's 135hz mid-bass horns a few years ago, single 8pe21 per horn version. I built them quick and dirty as a prototype to see if I liked them enough to build a 'final' version. Well, they were so damn good I had unfinished mid-bass horns in the living room system for a few years. They are quite remarkable in their band. I used them from ~150hz - ~600hz.

He also has a design that gets down closer to 100hz:

DIY 100hz midbass horn - The Paper Horn by Inlow Sound

And some other horns there on his site as well. I suspect the 12" version sounds equally good in it's band, but haven't built any myself.

The 135hz horn isn't too long and is easier to fit into a room. I'm very lucky that I have a very large living room and can tolerate even longer mid-bass horns. So, I'm building some much larger ones at some point. Very much in the simulating and contemplating phase now, might build a very quick and dirty prototype to test in the garage late this year.


useless anecdotal subjectivity complete....

Cheers,
Gable
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Old 26th March 2019, 07:43 PM   #258
norman bates is offline norman bates  United States
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Hmm, ty.

I assume horn loading as low as possible would sound better through the bass guitar region.

I know i just turned off 100hz crossover and I'm a little happier.
Ug, phase.
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Old 26th March 2019, 08:29 PM   #259
freddi is offline freddi  United States
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Pros and cons of different midbass horns
I remember when round wound bass guitar strings became popular - lots of ugly overtones and ate frets - I don't like that sound very much - but that helped in the days of playing though a folded horn with nothing much above 300Hz do love bass viola and sound of slapped bass viola

I think Inlow's 135Hz horn would scale 1.2 for my JBL M151 (might need a paper dustcap in place of its aluminum.

at my age and shape, might as well just wear headphones
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Old 26th March 2019, 08:46 PM   #260
pcgab is offline pcgab  United States
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Pros and cons of different midbass horns
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddi View Post
I think Inlow's 135Hz horn would scale 1.2 for my JBL M151 (might need a paper dustcap in place of its aluminum.
I've wondered if it would scale to a 15, M151, 2225, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freddi View Post
at my age and shape, might as well just wear headphones
But headphones can't smack you in the chest like a mid-bass horn, at least none of the headphones I own can!

Cheers,
Gable
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