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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Question about reusing crossover for 2 way
Question about reusing crossover for 2 way
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Old 4th June 2014, 09:45 PM   #1
wendelltate is offline wendelltate  United States
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Default Question about reusing crossover for 2 way

Hi,

I am thinking about building a 2 way design similar to Audio Note or Snell E. I have broken down an old pair of Infinity SM122s that were given to me. I was specifically wondering if the adjustable crossover would be worth using? It is one of those that has the knob so that you can adjust the crossover point (I think). I am assuming that the drivers are not appropriate for what I am looking to do. They have a reputation for being rock and roll speakers.

Also, are there any diy designs like the Snell or Audio Notes? I know that they sell the kits for the Audio Notes but they seem a bit expensive. I want to build something very transparent, musical, etc. I mostly listen to acoustic jazz and vocals.

Thanks
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Old 4th June 2014, 11:52 PM   #2
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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You won't be able to reuse that crossover at all. But 8" bass plus tweeter is a very easy speaker to get right.

Troels Gravesen likes this one a lot: TQWT-

Quite a hard build though. I was impressed by this WLM La Scala design:

An externally hosted image should be here but it no longer works. Please upload images instead of linking to them to prevent this.


That is a Visaton W200S-8 bass and TW70 cone tweeter. The filter below will work well enough with it.

You could also probably use that Phenolic Ring Tweeter at Parts Express. The main trick is to get a well behaved bass like this:
H1471-08 CA22RNY
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Simple Filter 8 inch bass.JPG (22.8 KB, 253 views)
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Old 5th June 2014, 05:02 AM   #3
Inductor is offline Inductor  Portugal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wendelltate View Post
Hi,

I am thinking about building a 2 way design similar to Audio Note or Snell E. I have broken down an old pair of Infinity SM122s that were given to me. I was specifically wondering if the adjustable crossover would be worth using? It is one of those that has the knob so that you can adjust the crossover point (I think). I am assuming that the drivers are not appropriate for what I am looking to do. They have a reputation for being rock and roll speakers.

Also, are there any diy designs like the Snell or Audio Notes? I know that they sell the kits for the Audio Notes but they seem a bit expensive. I want to build something very transparent, musical, etc. I mostly listen to acoustic jazz and vocals.

Thanks
If you want to build a 2-way design (yourself) like the AN's you have a long way in front of you, both in years and
StereoTimes -- Audio Note AN-E SEC Silver Loudspeaker
Snell Type E/III loudspeaker | Stereophile.com
Snell
http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/..._Note_engl.pdf

Look at my previous design for the 8" + tweeter with a variable attenuator:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ml#post3933264

You have many exotics well priced but I doubt that you would spend that amount of money in drivers (example below).
SEAS Exotic T35 X3-06 Alnico
So if you don't build - You didn't build that!...(mime) - and you are not buying the (...expensive) drivers, better going with the predesigned kits that you can afford from other distributors (examples).
Eton S7, Symphony 7" 2-Way Kit, Pair kit1 (price/pair)
Seas A26 10" 2-way Kit, Pair (based on the Dynaco) kit2
with nice Seas Prestige A26RE4 10"
Dynaco clone with SEAS Exotic T35 tweeter

Other interesting drivers:
SEAS CA21REX
SEAS W22EX-001
SEAS U22REX/P-SL (H1659-08) 8" Woven
Vifa 21 WN 340/8
DAVIS 20MC8
Aurum Cantus AC200/50C2C 8"
AUDAX AT210Z0
Scan Speak 21W/8554
Midrange distortion test (LINKWITZ)

Tweeters, others:
Monacor DT 300
Tonegen/Foster (Tonegen was a supplier to Infinity, and others, merged with Foster in Japan and production was transferred to Taiwan. In 2005 production moved to China.) link
Tonegen 94C70DS-00HD
Tonegen 94C7DDS00HD (variant)
Seas T25CF001 E0006-06 Tweeter Madisound
Seas Millennium T25CF002 - E0011
SEAS Prestige 27TDC (H1149) no ferrro
SEAS Prestige 27TFFC (H0881)

AN kits
AN kits2
Attached Images
File Type: jpg AN-E kit.jpg (46.0 KB, 244 views)
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Old 5th June 2014, 07:00 AM   #4
prasi is online now prasi  India
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Question about reusing crossover for 2 way
Hi Steve,
What is the crossover frequency for the visaton speakers recommended and can you provide the cabinet details/ or should we go for the vistason recommended cabinet dimensions for 33Hz?
regards
Prasi
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Old 5th June 2014, 08:28 AM   #5
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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WLM reviewers say it's a 1.5kHz crossover (Zobel on the bass?) with first order tweeter, but I've never heard a speaker like that which actually sounds good. So I just go with the woofers natural rolloff around 3.5kHz, which is what Troels does too. Below.

Cabinet is just whatever you want really, between 30 and 60 litres. I think a Spendor lossy type would work well here: Spendor BC1. Removeable baffle is quite a good idea for future updates.

Drive units are a moveable feast too, as Inductor says. The SEAS U22REX/P would be a VERY nice one to use IMO. But Visaton give you some tunings: W 200 S - 8 Ohm

Cone tweeters are the key to a nice sound IMO. I've tried soft domes and not liked them so much, they spit and sizzle. Cheap as chips too. I'm using a REALLY CHEAP 6 Monacor HT22/8 here which is a bit flatter than the TW70.

The filter I gave is easily adjusted to taste. A smaller 1mH coil will give less bass for instance and might be right for a big reflex, the 10 ohm adjusts treble level. Try it in Boxsim. How easy is that? And it sounds very good indeed.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 8inch Bass plus Cone Tweeter.jpg (90.4 KB, 224 views)
File Type: png Frequency and Impedance Plot.PNG (21.0 KB, 202 views)
File Type: jpg Simple Filter 8 inch bass.JPG (22.8 KB, 89 views)
File Type: jpg 8 inch bass crossover.jpg (78.1 KB, 57 views)
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Old 5th June 2014, 09:16 AM   #6
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
Cone tweeters are the key to a nice sound IMO. I've tried soft
domes and not liked them so much, they spit and sizzle. Cheap
as chips too. I'm using a REALLY CHEAP 6 Monacor HT22/8
here which is a bit flatter than the TW70.
Remembering your post about Robin Marshall Interview, I know
now where your appreciation of cone tweeters may be coming from.
Right or wrong?

I can't seem to remember you saying anything about owning measuring
equipment. Using any ? I am asking that because I find your statement
of dome tweeters not sounding right a bit uncommon. I have to say that
I have never come accross a dome, usual or inverted one, not sounding
nice or right. Not saying there weren't any differences.
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Old 5th June 2014, 10:13 AM   #7
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Lojzek, I've been listening to good speakers for 40 years, and I'm pretty good at picking out frequency response, and phase alignment and the reflex or closed box sound.

I can usually tune a crossover by ear too, because I know what does what. I have a multimeter and a tone generator, but that's it really.

Soft domes sound OK when you are fresh, because your ear can compensate. But when you are tired, they sound terrible IMO. There are some designs like the Vifa XT25 and SB Acoustics which fix the 7kHz resonance problems at the centre of the dome. Think about it, why is a cone good for bassmids, but not for tweeters? Actually the only thing soft domes have going for them is good dispersion.

These days, I think that spherical tweeters and spherical dustcaps on bass units are just bad news. The mathematical basis is to be found at 33 minutes into this lecture: Lecture 9 | String Theory and M-Theory - YouTube

Waves behave badly on a sphere at high frequency. To get back on-topic, once you have some drive units which play nicely together, and a cabinet which works, the crossover is easily modified. I have done some more complex ones with success, but this simple filter is an easy start. It's up to you how much you want to pay for a bass unit. Obviously the better ones cost more.
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Old 5th June 2014, 10:25 AM   #8
prasi is online now prasi  India
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Question about reusing crossover for 2 way
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the detailed reply. I may as well build these I can get hold of the drivers.
Regards
Prasi
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Old 5th June 2014, 10:26 AM   #9
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Thank you Steve for your reply. Cheers!
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Old 5th June 2014, 10:53 AM   #10
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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Because there's many variations on this theme, here's a Sony E44 which I gave a better crossover to than the original mere 2.2uF on the tweeter.

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Nice eminence style woofer with cloth surround and transparent cloth dustcap. Mylar cone tweeter. Just up my street, eh?

It sounds terrific.
Attached Images
File Type: png 8 inch Bass Sony E44.PNG (7.1 KB, 42 views)
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