Hello!
I have been thinking of the Beyma 12p80nd + Beyma TPL-150 combo for quite a while now. But I just got an offer to buy a pair of second hand JBL 2226H for 2000SEK per driver, that's about €220 or $305. New they would be twice the price.
The Beyma 12p80nd would be just a little bit more expensive than the second hand 2226H.
If I understand correctly the 2226H is too big to be paired with the Beyma AMT so I would have to go with a compression driver and a horn, something like Wayne Parhams Four Pi speaker. This option would much likely be a lot cheaper than the Beyma+Beyma option since the TPL-150 is quite pricey.
Although, the 12p80nd could just as well be matched with a compression driver + horn and that would bring the price down to the same level as the JBL + CD combo. But what is best?
I understand that the 12p80nd would most likely need subs to fill out the bottom end. No problems, I have a pair of Eminence LAB12 in sealed boxes already. The JBL would do pretty fine without subs, just a little bit of EQ in the bottom maybe.
I don't know yet what type of room these will be in. I am moving to study at university this autumn so I guess space will be somewhat limited. I guess the 12p80nd would give me a smaller box than the JBL.
What do you think I should go with? JBL + CD + horn? 12p80nd + TPL-150? 12p80nd + CD + horn?
I have been thinking of the Beyma 12p80nd + Beyma TPL-150 combo for quite a while now. But I just got an offer to buy a pair of second hand JBL 2226H for 2000SEK per driver, that's about €220 or $305. New they would be twice the price.
The Beyma 12p80nd would be just a little bit more expensive than the second hand 2226H.
If I understand correctly the 2226H is too big to be paired with the Beyma AMT so I would have to go with a compression driver and a horn, something like Wayne Parhams Four Pi speaker. This option would much likely be a lot cheaper than the Beyma+Beyma option since the TPL-150 is quite pricey.
Although, the 12p80nd could just as well be matched with a compression driver + horn and that would bring the price down to the same level as the JBL + CD combo. But what is best?
I understand that the 12p80nd would most likely need subs to fill out the bottom end. No problems, I have a pair of Eminence LAB12 in sealed boxes already. The JBL would do pretty fine without subs, just a little bit of EQ in the bottom maybe.
I don't know yet what type of room these will be in. I am moving to study at university this autumn so I guess space will be somewhat limited. I guess the 12p80nd would give me a smaller box than the JBL.
What do you think I should go with? JBL + CD + horn? 12p80nd + TPL-150? 12p80nd + CD + horn?
That's a bit too much money though, and the speaker would be a bit too big. Bear in mind that I'm a poor student.
If its going to take you that long, Still yes, the wait will be worth it.
Carry on listening to your AKG's in the mean time
Yes, I'm broke at the moment since I'm travelling but I could find enough money to buy the 2226H that are on sale at the moment. But for a 12p80nd+TPL150 build I would have to wait for more funds (tax refund coming in this summer).
I still have a pair of quite good floorstanders but they're not lively and dynamic enough. 6.5" inch drivers and soft-dome tweeters are still limited in terms of dynamics.
I still have a pair of quite good floorstanders but they're not lively and dynamic enough. 6.5" inch drivers and soft-dome tweeters are still limited in terms of dynamics.
A 15" JBL 2226H cone is too large for a great TPL150H marriage. A 15" woofer cannot reach the required 1400-1600Hz without severe beaming, cone break-up and SPL droop from cone mass.
It has been well established that a smooth controlled directivity function is necessary for great sound. An abrupt change in directivity between two drivers changes the ratio of room direct/indirect energy, which changes the sound stage at the listener.
IF you are set on purchasing the Beyma TPL150(H) AMT tweeter, you will want to study the polar response vs. frequency, and select a midbass which matches this polar map at the crossover frequency. The standard TPL150H Horn has an 80H x 40V polar response.
TPL150H mates easiest to 8" - 10" midbass with ~1600Hz Xover and 80 degree polar response pattern. Naturally, smaller midbass drivers reduce the SPL/watt efficiency.
DIYaudio TPL150 users favor 1600Hz Xover, and some accept 1400Hz Xover at low home SPLs. Challenges/solutions with Beyma 12P80Nd integration include: 1400Hz Xover with stock 80x40 horn and accepting low SPLmax, or 1600Hz Xover with custom 60x40 horn. A 12P80Nd in a small sealed box has F3 ~ 210Hz. A 12P80Nd in an aperodic box has F3 ~80Hz. The strong motor and low Qts in the 12P80Nd create a fast and controlled response, at the cost of limited bass. The 12P80Nd is typically used as a large midrange. Its 5.456% efficiency is about 2x a typical 12" woofer. Doppler type IMD starts to become an issue when wide bandwidth is demanded from a large diameter midrange.... you need a woofer.
A 15" JBL 2226H cone is too large for a great TPL150H marriage. A 15" woofer cannot reach 1400-1600Hz without severe beaming, cone break-up and SPL droop from cone mass.
It has been well established that a smooth controlled directivity function is necessary for great sound. An abrupt change in directivity between two drivers changes the ratio of room direct/indirect energy, which changes the sound stage at the listener.
IF you are set on purchasing the Beyma TPL150(H) AMT tweeter, you will want to study the polar response vs. frequency, and select a midbass which matches this polar map at the crossover frequency. The standard TPL150H Horn has an 80H x 40V polar response.
TPL150H mates easiest to 8" - 10" midbass with ~1600Hz Xover and 80 degree polar response pattern. Naturally, smaller midbass drivers reduce the SPL/watt efficiency.
DIYaudio TPL150 users favor 1600Hz Xover, and some accept 1400Hz Xover at low home SPLs. Challenges/solutions with Beyma 12P80Nd integration include: 1400Hz Xover with stock 80x40 horn and accepting low SPLmax, or 1600Hz Xover with custom 60x40 horn. A 12P80Nd in a small sealed box has F3 ~ 210Hz. A 12P80Nd in an aperodic box has F3 ~80Hz. The strong motor and low Qts in the 12P80Nd create a fast and controlled response, at the cost of limited bass. The 12P80Nd is typically used as a large midrange. Its 5.456% efficiency is about 2x a typical 12" woofer. Doppler type IMD starts to become an issue when wide bandwidth is demanded from a large diameter midrange.... you need a woofer.
A 15" JBL 2226H cone is too large for a great TPL150H marriage. A 15" woofer cannot reach 1400-1600Hz without severe beaming, cone break-up and SPL droop from cone mass.
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Okay, polar response vs frequency is something I definitely don't know much about. I have read a little bit about directivity, but is that the same thing?
I just realised that the problem with the 4Pi speakers is that the Eminence H290C horn is only available in America and that would mean shipping would cost a great deal.
I just realised that the problem with the 4Pi speakers is that the Eminence H290C horn is only available in America and that would mean shipping would cost a great deal.
Recently i made something similar to 4Pi. I made two way with Beyma SM115K and B&C DE250 compression driver in 19" waveguide. Made it in test cabinets and walked through a set of xover frequencies. I tried it from 900Hz and all the way up to 1500Hz just to hear the sound. It was a bit daunting but PCD by Jeff Bagby helped a lot and only test measurements was made to confirm phase and frequency response.
The sound was great. I made econowave few years ago but my friend made some large waveguides and i decided to sell econowave and go for a larger 15" midbass and bigger waveguides - no harm in that, right
But listening to it, a have always had a feeling that something is missing. Phase and frequency response were good - that was not it.
Then i wanted to trie it with midrange speaker. After some surfing, looking at TS and measurements (not factory made) and bothering more than few people, i bought B&C 6md38. It is 96dB midrange with flat frequency response and pretty low distortion. John Krutke made set of measurements including FR, CSD, TS and imp.
The drivers were the same. Beyma SM115K and DE250 but in smaller waveguide (18sound xt1086 waveguide) and with B&C midrange added. Left speaker was three way and right speaker was two way. Fadein from right to left revealed a ton of sound that was missing in two way. Maybe it was not the sound that was missing but lack of definition that high in mid band. 15" hold up to about 600Hz but after that frequency it performance started to fall compared to three way speaker that sounded great throughout the spectrum.
I mentioned earlier that i made econowave few years ago and i did not notice this kind of problem because midbass was 12" and with very low Mms (30gr) and Le was low too. I tried Deltalite II 2512 and Sonido SCW300 and it just sounded great.
So if i were to make 15" based two way again with xover point as high as1KHz or more (which i'm not going to do ever again) it would have to be midbass that has Mms very low. For 15" i would consider under 70gr a good value. In that range there are AE TD15M, Deltalite II 2515 and Altec 15" woofers.
Even then i would want to add midrange just to check and see if the sound is good enough or it can be improved.
My experience is the same. I think that in reality very few 15" woofers are up to the task - if any.
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