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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 8th January 2004, 03:48 AM   #1
x. onasis is offline x. onasis
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Default diyAudio reference speaker project

Many new members come to the forum with the same request; "What speaker should I build for my first project?"

Often they have some preconceived notions of what they want, but almost always the response is to look around for a well tweaked two-way kit. Sure, good advice. But there are as many out there, as design considerations for their own specific use and needs...and budget.

Now, I'm not suggesting there is a perfect speaker project to recommend, but wouldn't it be nice if there was a project many of us could build that was exactly the same for group reference and tweaking? I can imagine this starting an unending argument over choice of drivers, as we already have our own present systems and wants (including price points) for next projects. But it might be worth discussing.

It certainly would seem worthwhile for the newbie, who could get suggestions from others with the same frame of reference, especially considering pricepoint.

To begin an initial project among forumites, might be akin to designing ART by committee, but it might make for lively discussion, and that is valuable in itself. After we've each got our "reference speakers," we might then want to take it to a new level. I'm sure the successive projects of our members with this as a common thread, would show quite the diversity of cabinet styles, tweaks and applications to accommodate differing needs, wants and talents.

But the ability to have a common reference for A/B comparisons, even in different listening rooms, measuring of the drivers and the finished speakers, and using and posting of modeling ideas, as changes of the initial designs are discussed, might be a valuable tool for learning, teaching, and exchanging information.

One of the resident Gurus (I believe it was Planet 10) once said that it's hard to beat the well respected Vifa P13WH-00-08 and the D27TG-45-06 with a single cap for a simple two-way. This might be a good starting project, with many possible applications to explore. Vifa products seem to be available everywhere and this combination wouldn't be too expensive to build a couple of times in differing configurations. (His TLb comes to mind.)

Would anyone be interested in a project like this? Or would those interested, prefer (perhaps) better, pricier drivers, and possibly, the discount a "group buy" might provide?
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Old 8th January 2004, 01:12 PM   #2
PatR is offline PatR  United States
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speaking as a newbie PLEASE PLEASE do this!

great Idea I am sure this forum gets this same request over and over (hell I've done two myself)

excellant idea!
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Old 8th January 2004, 01:37 PM   #3
cm is offline cm  Singapore
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Great idea!

Those who want the Lexus of speakers ( and can afford it ) can see their desired beauties, and those who desire a reliable boring Honda can have their joy. As a newbie, I cannot tell the differnece between a Lada or a Golf of speakers. How about a grading by cost, performance, type of music etc?
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Old 8th January 2004, 02:09 PM   #4
tktran is offline tktran  Australia
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x. onasis-
I second that the idea of the P13WH-00-08 + suitable tweeter for a simple standmount 2 way.

Perhaps the ability to upgrade whilst reusing parts (at least drivers at least, perhaps even the 2 way XO?) will make it cost effective and allow some upgradability.

What about increasing the cabinet size and adding a larger bass driver (~8" for minimum 40Hz F3 anechoic).

2 way-
DIYA Reference 1 : P13WH-00-08 & suitable tweeter
3 way-
DIYA Reference 1+ : Suitable 8-10" bass driver as well as the P13WH-00-08 & suitable tweeter.

The active 3 way- just ticket that DIY Audio forumites can be proud of!
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Old 8th January 2004, 02:11 PM   #5
leadbelly is online now leadbelly  Canada
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Nice idea x. onasis (x. for short?). IMO, the bad news is, this will not happen. The good news is that something close to this has already happened with the ProAc 2.5 clone. Read the threads here and read Troels' paper on the subject and if you are like me, you will be stunned at the amount of tweaking done.

And your choice of mid & tweeter brought a smile to my lips, as I posted a while back on the same combo for use in a 3-way and got a bunch of slams about it. I think if you were to use that combo you would have to make the driver mods required.
Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Plato
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Old 8th January 2004, 02:22 PM   #6
Nielsio is offline Nielsio  Netherlands
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This might be nice for newbies, but:

1. There already are a million designs out there for newbies.

2. Why do people DIY?

2.1. Because of cost aspect

But moreover:

2.2. They can create the sound _they_ want

For instance:
I'd like nothing less than a high efficient 12 incher to produce midbass and bass.

So I wouldn't recommend to any newbie the system you name.. because I know better than that.
Behringer DEQ2496 . Twisted Pear Buffalo II DAC . JLTi tube buffered LM3875 . Supravox 215 Signature Bicone 125L vented
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Old 8th January 2004, 02:30 PM   #7
tktran is offline tktran  Australia
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I'm currently building the Proac 2.5 clone, and althought it's suitable as a 1st project, there are reasons why a small bookshelf two way still makes good sense

a) The ProAc uses expensive drivers. Within the Scanspeak familyt they they are close to being the cheapest Scanspeaks, but they are Scanspeaks nonetheless ($$).

b) large box, requiring large and thick panels

c) strict requirements in damping materials may be difficult to source

I would have loved to be able to build some sort of tried-and-trusted 2 way midsized bookshelf speakers before embarking on the 2.5 clones.

The less tweaking the better- the ability to have a quality reference speaker for A/B comparison...
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Old 8th January 2004, 03:19 PM   #8
rabbitz is offline rabbitz  Australia
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We were all newbies as some stage and to put a variety of projects is a great idea as there is always heaps of requests. Should be a small 2 way with 5" or 6 1/2" woofers and use reasonably priced drivers. Since nobody has, I'll kick off with a design.

The goal was to better my B&W DM303 (which has now been sold) with a speaker at half the cost. The best compliment this speaker got was "the B&W just sounds muffled". Lively, nice tonal balance, slightly forward, surprising bass extension. Betters the B&W DM303 IMHO.

Peerless 810653 Tweeter, Peerless 850488 woofer
Vb=11.3 litres (effective volume), 12.1 litres actual
Fb=65Hz (box tuning), F3=59Hz
58mm dia x 120mm port
180mm wide x 380mm high x 275mm deep, 16mm MDF
Crossover: series with 8.2 ohm resistor, 4.7uF capactitor, 0.47mH inductor (after testing 11 variations)
For series xo see Andy Graddons site (I owe him a great deal of thanks for his spreadsheet and information)

The challenge is open to the other Peerless freaks and also you Vifa guys.

Here's the completed item, the inside and the crossover.
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Old 8th January 2004, 04:39 PM   #9
bradley is offline bradley  United States
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Default We Could Call it the KitKaboodle..

..or Kit'chen Sink, or something less derivitive... hell, I don't know

While I'm hunting every alley of the internet I keep hoping that I will come across more projects, like the Proac 2.5 clone, or Lynn Olsens Ariel, with similarly sufficient interest to actually draw comment from other builders. What would it take then to coalesce the experiences that diy'ers have had, are having, with each and all of the already dozens of kits/projects already established on the web, in a way that would make it easy for all to seek and contribute ideas?
Why not something akin to the Wikipedia Project? Anyone else gone to this site? Go there, click on 'About Wikipedia', then do some searching on your own. It's a remarkable collaboration on ideas whose model would fit beautifully into some adjunct, perhaps, of DiyAudio.com concerned specifically with individual projects. Each named project would be readily accessible by anyone interested in learning about it, and as easily by anyone interested in contributing knowledge and experience to it.
The momentum behind Wikipedia is that it is essentially self compiling. I know nothing really about the webmasters role, so perhaps I'm way off base here as to the practicality of such a thing. But the idea in some shape or form seems ready made for what we're talking about here.
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Old 8th January 2004, 05:13 PM   #10
PHilgeman is offline PHilgeman  United States
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If this is really going to happen, I would have to add a few things.

First, I would look at the PL14 instead of the P13. The MG14 from vifa is another option. I think vifa drivers are a good choice since they are available in most countries. Seas drivers seem to be pretty easy to find as well, so the CA15 would be an outstanding choice.

As far as tweeters go, Again, a vifa or seas. I would go with the D27TG35, it seems to have a good reputation.

For the XO, I would shoot for second order slopes, and good phase integration. The latter is paramount for a cohesive speaker.

Id put it all in a 9L ported box. If it is too big, not enough people will build it.

-Paul Hilgeman
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