x. onasis said:
I can't take credit for the design, only to promoting it and the concepts it exemplifies.
sreten said:
Right on -- This is very much the case. the problem is that there are so many to choose from. Any preconceptions (valid or not) a newbie comes in with and different needs for different people complicate things. And budget too (i hate to see a newbie expressing the desire to spend a zillion dollars on a 1st pr of speakers). A good budget for that 1st pr would be $50-500.
A good full-range (which most often needs a helper tweeter anyway) or a simple "convential" 2-way with the goal of adding separate powered woofers later is the direction i like to point them in.
dave
Dave,
Thanks for chiming in with a positive response and succinctly addressing the appropriate concerns. You've often pointed out that the use of a separate sub frees up the mid-bass or full ranger to excel by limiting its duties. Are you also saying that we might aim our project around a full-ranger for similar reasons?
I was hoping to get A/B comparisons now _and_ later between popular kits that show promise of expansion in designs and see where it leads. The interest shown so far suggests promise of this project in general.
Also so far, it seems the price range for interested builders is not in the Proac range, even with the likely result being a higher end project. First timers do have much to learn, but on the issue of their interest or knowledge, let each of us, with our own abilities decide where we go and those of you with greater knowledge help with the process as you wish.
Rabbitz makes a welcome suggestion of using Peerless instead of the P13 , and PHilgeman suggests PL14 or the MG14. Does anyone have first hand experience with comparable setups for an A/B comparison? Do these drivers show the promise of expansion?
Thanks for all the responses.
Thanks for chiming in with a positive response and succinctly addressing the appropriate concerns. You've often pointed out that the use of a separate sub frees up the mid-bass or full ranger to excel by limiting its duties. Are you also saying that we might aim our project around a full-ranger for similar reasons?
I was hoping to get A/B comparisons now _and_ later between popular kits that show promise of expansion in designs and see where it leads. The interest shown so far suggests promise of this project in general.
Also so far, it seems the price range for interested builders is not in the Proac range, even with the likely result being a higher end project. First timers do have much to learn, but on the issue of their interest or knowledge, let each of us, with our own abilities decide where we go and those of you with greater knowledge help with the process as you wish.
Rabbitz makes a welcome suggestion of using Peerless instead of the P13 , and PHilgeman suggests PL14 or the MG14. Does anyone have first hand experience with comparable setups for an A/B comparison? Do these drivers show the promise of expansion?
Thanks for all the responses.
Well, I am a COMPLETE newbie here. I have done lots of car audio, but am wanting to move on to home audio. I plan on moving from an apartment to a house soon, and when I do, I want a really nice audio setup.
Here are my concerns for a loudspeaker design as a newbie.
1. Price - no one wants to spend alot of money on thier first kit... it might not turn out right and I wouldnt want to spend alot on it.
2. Choice - being new doesnt mean we want to follow a strict set of guidelines. Perhaps suggest 3 or 4 or more different driver combinations and enclosure designs.
3. Leaning - This is going to be a learning experience for whoever does this (I am really thinking about doing this very soon). A nice FAQ or small web site that shows volume/port calculations, crossover bulding, driver choice, etc. Something that would give a good basic explanation as to why and how each decision for the above design options.
This is my first post here after a week of lurking. I finally have a router and nice bits, and have been looking through the PE catalog for a while now and really am excited for this. Keep up the good work guys!
Here are my concerns for a loudspeaker design as a newbie.
1. Price - no one wants to spend alot of money on thier first kit... it might not turn out right and I wouldnt want to spend alot on it.
2. Choice - being new doesnt mean we want to follow a strict set of guidelines. Perhaps suggest 3 or 4 or more different driver combinations and enclosure designs.
3. Leaning - This is going to be a learning experience for whoever does this (I am really thinking about doing this very soon). A nice FAQ or small web site that shows volume/port calculations, crossover bulding, driver choice, etc. Something that would give a good basic explanation as to why and how each decision for the above design options.
This is my first post here after a week of lurking. I finally have a router and nice bits, and have been looking through the PE catalog for a while now and really am excited for this. Keep up the good work guys!
Yes, there are a lot of projects on the web but how would a newbie know what is good and what is rubbish. I thinks that's why they turn to this site for direction as there is a lot of knowledge here and it is IMO, the best DIY site. Searching for answers is not easy and when you do find something you tend to get conflicting information. I tried to get info on gainclones, but it just filled my head with too much bits of info that became a puzzle and I didn't know which was good, so I gave up.
I've seen too many times where a newbie has asked for a direction of what to build, only to be pointed to some exotic, expensive project.
A project not so much endorsed by this site but created here and given the thumbs up would give the newbie confidence that his project is going to sound OK and his money and effort isn't going to be wasted. All that is needed is some good economical starter projects such as a small bookshelf, a floorstander and a sub which would cover most newbie needs.
A completed project section would be nice where enough details could be provided for someone to build it .........or are people too worried their design might get heckled........ or are they secrets. Come to think of it, I've never seen any final design details.
I've seen too many times where a newbie has asked for a direction of what to build, only to be pointed to some exotic, expensive project.
A project not so much endorsed by this site but created here and given the thumbs up would give the newbie confidence that his project is going to sound OK and his money and effort isn't going to be wasted. All that is needed is some good economical starter projects such as a small bookshelf, a floorstander and a sub which would cover most newbie needs.
A completed project section would be nice where enough details could be provided for someone to build it .........or are people too worried their design might get heckled........ or are they secrets. Come to think of it, I've never seen any final design details.
I also agree with the thread. A nice compact (and fairly cheap) pair of speakers that everyone has kept fairly similar would be good. It is of course mainly helpful to newer people, but as suggested, would make a lovely reference point for people to compare other components. A lot of the things in this field are highly opinionated, and this can reduce the relevance of it to the beginner. What I class as nice and "detailed" someone else might call "edgy". I haven't ever listened to expensive gear, so I haven't had a chance to calibrate my ear to it.
Ideally, I think such a reference system should also include an amplifier and perhaps a simple preamp. At least this way, beginners would have a well matched system that will allow direct comparisons with others on this board and help direct their enthusiasm.
I am new to this, I have built one pair of speakers to a design (incorrectly), and would love to have a base system (with as many other people as possible) for comparison.
Andrew
Ideally, I think such a reference system should also include an amplifier and perhaps a simple preamp. At least this way, beginners would have a well matched system that will allow direct comparisons with others on this board and help direct their enthusiasm.
I am new to this, I have built one pair of speakers to a design (incorrectly), and would love to have a base system (with as many other people as possible) for comparison.
Andrew
Generally it is impossible to get DIY people to restrain themselves and build the same thing because what attracts them to DIY is that they get to add their own ideas to their project. It is a lot cheaper to go with one mid/woofer and one tweeter.
Then they each can be of high quality.
1. An interesting and fun approach might be to specify certain drivers and a box size and shape. Then let everyone go wild on the crossover, baffle step correction, notch filters, Zobel etc. Lots of potential designs, people could try each others designs, lot of discussion and arguments. The box should be the same size and shape as one of the new high quality boxes available at PArts Express, so some could just throw it together. Others could make homebrew boxes .
How about using tricky to use, not too expensive ones like the Vifa ring radiator tweeter?,
Or maybe go high efficiency, with
the Aurum Cantus cheapest model tweeter at about $100 each?
Need a higher crossover with these though
I don't know what woofer/mids would work bestwith these options, but some of you have ideas I'll bet!
2. The other appealing approach is to spec ONLY the drivers and let cabinets be part of the wild card. This would allow people with only 2 tweets and 2 woofs total to temperarly put all their drivers in one cabinet to test ideas such as push/push, or to try open baffle, or J Low horns, etc. The drivers could be used in any multiples desired. Now THAT would be fun!! I think option 2 fits the DIY mentality!!
Any ideas?
Then they each can be of high quality.
1. An interesting and fun approach might be to specify certain drivers and a box size and shape. Then let everyone go wild on the crossover, baffle step correction, notch filters, Zobel etc. Lots of potential designs, people could try each others designs, lot of discussion and arguments. The box should be the same size and shape as one of the new high quality boxes available at PArts Express, so some could just throw it together. Others could make homebrew boxes .
How about using tricky to use, not too expensive ones like the Vifa ring radiator tweeter?,
Or maybe go high efficiency, with
the Aurum Cantus cheapest model tweeter at about $100 each?
Need a higher crossover with these though
I don't know what woofer/mids would work bestwith these options, but some of you have ideas I'll bet!
2. The other appealing approach is to spec ONLY the drivers and let cabinets be part of the wild card. This would allow people with only 2 tweets and 2 woofs total to temperarly put all their drivers in one cabinet to test ideas such as push/push, or to try open baffle, or J Low horns, etc. The drivers could be used in any multiples desired. Now THAT would be fun!! I think option 2 fits the DIY mentality!!
Any ideas?
How about the gurus get together and write: "The Idiots Guide to DIY Loudspeakers." 
On the subject of the thread:
Most of the well documented designs seem to run $150-200 for the parts (not including enclosure materials).
If the diyaudio.com reference speaker were a budget design, that could be had for around $100, I think it would be more attractive.
Yes, I know there are a few designs out there, in that price range, but mosty 1-way full-range, and 2-ways with small woofers, which dont go very low.
There are a ton of 6.5" woofers that are $20-30, and many tweeters that are $10-20. And with all of the $150-200 retail bookshelfs I've heard that sound decent - a comparable $100 DIY should be doable, right?
For example:
The drivers used in the Audax HT kit are on sale at PE. For a 2-way:
AP170Z0 - $22.04
TM025F1 - $11.04
With x-over parts, you should be able to come in around $100.
Just my 0.02-newbie-cents about the subject.
On the subject of the thread:
Most of the well documented designs seem to run $150-200 for the parts (not including enclosure materials).
If the diyaudio.com reference speaker were a budget design, that could be had for around $100, I think it would be more attractive.
Yes, I know there are a few designs out there, in that price range, but mosty 1-way full-range, and 2-ways with small woofers, which dont go very low.
There are a ton of 6.5" woofers that are $20-30, and many tweeters that are $10-20. And with all of the $150-200 retail bookshelfs I've heard that sound decent - a comparable $100 DIY should be doable, right?
For example:
The drivers used in the Audax HT kit are on sale at PE. For a 2-way:
AP170Z0 - $22.04
TM025F1 - $11.04
With x-over parts, you should be able to come in around $100.
Just my 0.02-newbie-cents about the subject.
I recently had a look through all the documented speaker projects I could find that named the drivers and included a crossover schematic. It surprised me how few I could find, given I have a very fast internet connection which allows me to view vast numbers of pages very quickly, so I have a massive link list. There are are great many DIY speaker designs that have been well implemented but not documented. Often because the person who built them doesn't know how easy it is to create a website, or they don't have the inclination to share their design on the web, which often means the idea simply hasn't occurred to them.
I'm all for seeing as many DIY speakers put up on the web as possible. Yes, there are some good ones out there, but often the ones that are adequately documented don't quite have the driver combination that you would like.
In DIY I think diversity is one of the best things. Instead of having a number of people do the same thing, I'd rather see a numbef of people do a number of different speakers and then document them sufficient for a newbie to build it, given at least the ability to source components and read a crossover schematic. Perhaps this reference speaker could be a vented 2 way bookshelf speaker using a 5" or 6.5" midbass driver at a price point significantly less than Scan Speak and Seas Excel drivers.
If anyone does have a DIY speaker that they haven't posted on the web, I have a new thread where you can have it posted on my site. I'm also looking for some good links.
regards,
Paul
I'm all for seeing as many DIY speakers put up on the web as possible. Yes, there are some good ones out there, but often the ones that are adequately documented don't quite have the driver combination that you would like.
In DIY I think diversity is one of the best things. Instead of having a number of people do the same thing, I'd rather see a numbef of people do a number of different speakers and then document them sufficient for a newbie to build it, given at least the ability to source components and read a crossover schematic. Perhaps this reference speaker could be a vented 2 way bookshelf speaker using a 5" or 6.5" midbass driver at a price point significantly less than Scan Speak and Seas Excel drivers.
If anyone does have a DIY speaker that they haven't posted on the web, I have a new thread where you can have it posted on my site. I'm also looking for some good links.
regards,
Paul
A section in the Wiki sounds like a great idea. As long as the newbie knows where to look (big neon sign maybe).
I think the Vifa driver combination of P13WH-00-08 and D27TG-45-06 that was originally proposed is probably the best choice for the Newbie as they are resonably priced, easily aquired, well behaved drivers, you only need a simple crossover and would end up with a good result. You could also add a variation using the P17WJ-00-08 for those who want a bit more bottom end (and this is from a Peerless user.......I can say Vifa).
I think the Vifa driver combination of P13WH-00-08 and D27TG-45-06 that was originally proposed is probably the best choice for the Newbie as they are resonably priced, easily aquired, well behaved drivers, you only need a simple crossover and would end up with a good result. You could also add a variation using the P17WJ-00-08 for those who want a bit more bottom end (and this is from a Peerless user.......I can say Vifa).
what is the "wiki" ?If newbies are going to copy this reference design why does it need to be so simple? If you use drivers that have already been extensively used and are available in many kits like the Vifa P13/P17 and the D27, many DIYers will still go looking for designs using some more exciting drivers. Why no do something a little different? Isn't that, after all, a big part of the DIY spirit?
What about something more exotic, like the Vifa XT tweeter, or the Peerless HDS phase plug midbass drivers, or Vifa MG series, or some of the Seas standard line aluminium midbass units? Or the Vifa M18, a driver which is said to compare well with a popular Scan Speak driver, yet at little more cost than the Vifa P17.
Or perhaps I have missed the point of this thread ...
For the Wiki, have a look at the top of the homepage. That's what a mean about having a neon sign to show them where to find them.
I think you are right about the spirit of DIY of trying different drivers etc, OK for the seasoned or adventurous DIYer but I think for the first timer something really simple would be the go and with proven drivers.
I prefer to go from concept and design everything as it's more satisfying (get some disasters along the way, but hey.....part of the game).
I think you might have hit on something about existing designs available........maybe all it needs is links to the better designs. Such as if someone wants a Peerless TL, then link to the Peerless pipes.
I think you are right about the spirit of DIY of trying different drivers etc, OK for the seasoned or adventurous DIYer but I think for the first timer something really simple would be the go and with proven drivers.
I prefer to go from concept and design everything as it's more satisfying (get some disasters along the way, but hey.....part of the game).
I think you might have hit on something about existing designs available........maybe all it needs is links to the better designs. Such as if someone wants a Peerless TL, then link to the Peerless pipes.
"For the Wiki, have a look at the top of the homepage. That's what a mean about having a neon sign to show them where to find them." rabbitz
(i'm a newbie and havn't figured out how to insert quote yet)
rabbitz, I'd run on like an idiot about the Wikipedia earlier in this thread and wondered why noone had responded to it. I had no idea myself that wiki was already a section of diyaudio.com!
So it already exists and hasn't yet been used to build a speaker projects library yet? I'm a bit dumbfounded. But as I also said earlier, I'm no webmaster, so perhaps it really isn't as simple as it appears.
(i'm a newbie and havn't figured out how to insert quote yet)
rabbitz, I'd run on like an idiot about the Wikipedia earlier in this thread and wondered why noone had responded to it. I had no idea myself that wiki was already a section of diyaudio.com!
So it already exists and hasn't yet been used to build a speaker projects library yet? I'm a bit dumbfounded. But as I also said earlier, I'm no webmaster, so perhaps it really isn't as simple as it appears.
The idea I was trying to generate, was an inexpensive, yet good project that would serve as a reference to other designs, so a member could say "I've build a different speaker using such and such tweeter or crossover (or enclosure) and it's improvements are as follows....over my reference speaker.
If many of us have exactly the same reference speaker, then our recommendations for other designs or modifications of this design, in this, or any price range would be more objective rather than almost completely subjective.
Rabbitz-
So you're on board with the P13WH-00-08 and D27TG-45-06 ? We then can look forward to your remarks on the comparison to your Peerless speakers.
I have about 6 pairs of speakers (kits and sort-of kits) in this price range to compare to. (under $200. US)A search on the P13 turned up
this site which looks like a good source of info for the newbie...wonder why this site isn't linked?
Here is Scott C. Blaier's Esquire....
5 litre, with a sloped baffle, but a rather complex x-over.
Can't seem to locate a plan using a single cap....Do we want to start with the simplest x-over? My Windoz is starting to yawn...BBL... Help anyone?
Let's Do This
Well, it looks like with have both sufficient interest and a sufficient number of ideas. Why don't you "old-timers" at this nominate someone to set up the project, post it in the "Wiki" section (gotta go check that place out in a minute), and we'll go from there.
I'm actually ready to build, although I will need to go out an buy all the materials and tools required. But when we come to an agreement on what we'll do I'm ready! Well, ready as a newbie can be, anyway...
Well, it looks like with have both sufficient interest and a sufficient number of ideas. Why don't you "old-timers" at this nominate someone to set up the project, post it in the "Wiki" section (gotta go check that place out in a minute), and we'll go from there.
I'm actually ready to build, although I will need to go out an buy all the materials and tools required. But when we come to an agreement on what we'll do I'm ready! Well, ready as a newbie can be, anyway...
x. onasis said:
The TLb (althou a bi-pole version) is such an animal (there is a thread on the TLb on this forum), and my buddy Chris, has replaced the Linn tweeter on his Daline with the same (but tweaked) Vifa tweeter. After 2 or 3 months of playing with the XO he ended up with a single cap too. Anything more "sucked the lif out of them". It should be noted that the Dalines are downstairs in the HT and he is using a set of well executed Buschorns with a modeified Foster FE103A in his main system (sometimes with a helper tweeter, sometimes not).
dave
paulspencer-
I believe your suggestion quoted above is a good one, but without input from those experienced with these drivers, especially comparing them to the P13, we're left to our own devices.
Certainly all suggestions are welcome, and I'll happily go along with the consensus, I'm simply trying to find the common ground among those interested. The responses I'm happy to say, seemed to go along with these drivers and far outnumbered the naysayers.
It would be nice if one of the resident gurus wanted to design this speaker for us...(hint, hint.) But my guess is that it might be a greater cost to them than benefit.....we'll see.
Other suggestions of designs should consider future availability, that should rule out "clearance" and sadly, Audax drivers.
Designing by committee could take a while, but maybe not, afterall the "just do it" philosophy has its rewards. Every speaker I've built has been a pleasant surprise in some way, and definately a learning experience. The serendipitous effects of synergy are imposible to predict.
Perhaps interested ppl could post a desired style and/or price point. Or if this small bookshelf fits the bill.
I'll be buying multiple drivers to start and planning the next project with them (unless they are higher priced ones.) I'm tempted to think in terms of a disassemble-able tower for the second one, even if the initial design enclosure is small. Built-in stand, TL and TLb, by changing the back panel and interior woodwork. I just hope my Audax HT is completed by then, otherwise I'll have to do some serious shop cleaning.
I believe your suggestion quoted above is a good one, but without input from those experienced with these drivers, especially comparing them to the P13, we're left to our own devices.
Certainly all suggestions are welcome, and I'll happily go along with the consensus, I'm simply trying to find the common ground among those interested. The responses I'm happy to say, seemed to go along with these drivers and far outnumbered the naysayers.
It would be nice if one of the resident gurus wanted to design this speaker for us...(hint, hint.) But my guess is that it might be a greater cost to them than benefit.....we'll see.
Other suggestions of designs should consider future availability, that should rule out "clearance" and sadly, Audax drivers.
Designing by committee could take a while, but maybe not, afterall the "just do it" philosophy has its rewards. Every speaker I've built has been a pleasant surprise in some way, and definately a learning experience. The serendipitous effects of synergy are imposible to predict.
Perhaps interested ppl could post a desired style and/or price point. Or if this small bookshelf fits the bill.
I'll be buying multiple drivers to start and planning the next project with them (unless they are higher priced ones.) I'm tempted to think in terms of a disassemble-able tower for the second one, even if the initial design enclosure is small. Built-in stand, TL and TLb, by changing the back panel and interior woodwork. I just hope my Audax HT is completed by then, otherwise I'll have to do some serious shop cleaning.