PSE-144 horn discussions

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Let's discuss this horn here rather than the gallery/list thread. Thanks.

Dear Santa Claus,
I want to see both raw and normalized graphics. If on-axis spl is shown, directivity sonogram can be just the normalized version. I'd like to see both 1/3oct and 1/12 or 1/24 smoothing too because I want to see the forest and trees. Impulse gating must be told too, this is very important specially when measurements are done how most of us are usually doing it, behind closed doors. Sometimes I also want to see unsmoothed response measurements of various angles horizontally and vertically, with various gating - sort of hardcore for the late hours...

Link:
redspade-audio.blogspot.com.au/2014/04/pse-144-launch-update.html

Pics:
IMG_6666.jpg


IMG_2518.jpg


Polar Plot:
PSE-dir-wf-h.gif


PSE-dir-h.gif
 
From the "Great Horn List" thread
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/178187-great-waveguide-list-21.html :

That is exactly what I do want to see.

I do not want to separate the response from the directivity. They are intimately coupled in the real world and that's the way I want to see it.

I think what Noah is getting at is that the directivity is a property of the waveguide that cannot be fixed via EQ. A normalized color polar graph shows the best you could get if you were to EQ a design for perfectly flat response from the waveguide at some angle.

The EQ and crossover can get into the response from a single driver, but not into the directivity. If I were to consider a waveguide for a design, I would want to know what it's radiation pattern was before I did a crossover/eq for it.
 
I find it impossible to tell where the -6db contour line is. Can we get some more resolution in the measurement or a better explanation of the color values in the existing plot?? I read the description on the site and looking at the posted measurements the directivity looks complex over the range specified from 250Hz and up. With the narrowing at 900Hz just how deep in db are those notches?? They could be a limiting factor as far as specifying the width out to 80 degrees. It that happening at -8db first heavy black line from 0?? Am I reading the plot correctly??

Is that a normalized plot or the actual measured directivity??

Thanks

Rob:)
 
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I find it impossible to tell where the -6db contour line is. Can we get some more resolution in the measurement or a better explanation of the color values in the existing plot?? I read the description on the site and looking at the posted measurements the directivity looks complex over the range specified from 250Hz and up. With the narrowing at 900Hz just how deep in db are those notches?? They could be a limiting factor as far as specifying the width out to 80 degrees. It that happening at -8db first heavy black line from 0?? Am I reading the plot correctly??

Is that a normalized plot or the actual measured directivity??

Thanks

Rob:)

Here is Paul's response:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/178187-great-waveguide-list-20.html#post3887283



Honestly though, it's nearly useless, and looking through Arta's own documentation it doesn't have to be:

http://www.artalabs.hr/AppNotes/AP6_Directivity_Measurements-EngRev1.01.pdf

However, the doubled-up "Red" ranges between dark red and orange are further obfuscating detail. This basically means that anything referenced to a average range in red is going to have double the scale of the rest of the graph.

Another problem is a "lower" limit of 1/12 averaging, which frankly should be as high as 1/64th. (..the higher, the less averaging that occurs - or the more "raw" the response is: having more detail.)


As for normalization:

Paul states that it is, and it certainly looks normalized on 0 degree axis - with a tell-tale "flat" (or perfectly linear) response at 0 degrees (or the middle of the plot). (It's easier to see in the directivity plot (as opposed to the color sonogram).)


Normalization as a baseline is horrible. Look through the Arta documentation to see the differences.
 
Has there been any offical word if this horn is licensed by Danley Sound Labs? Is there, or should there be concern of patent infringement? I think this is a legitment question that is fair to ask. I'd like things on the forum to always be on the up-and-up.
 
Has there been any offical word if this horn is licensed by Danley Sound Labs? Is there, or should there be concern of patent infringement? I think this is a legitment question that is fair to ask. I'd like things on the forum to always be on the up-and-up.

Yeah, I always do a quick mental "up-take" when I see something like this.

For the DIY community however, Tom's been exceedingly generous - so my thought is that it's "sanctioned" (if perhaps not licensed).



There are however other instances where it just doesn't pass the "smell test": specifically those not of a DIY nature that are expressly "commercialized".


Here is one that bothers me:

ULTIMA! - dynamikks

Of course Dynamikks might have a licensing agreement, or it might not even be legally necessary (..given the potential for some patent limitations between US and other foreign jurisdictions like Germany.)

Don't know, but once I saw it I did that mental: WTF? :eek:
 
Fair points I guess. I have no ideas about it so we'll let the relevant people answer.

I'm more interested in hearing them to be honest. I've heard the Danley's original unity horn and also Synergy (Yorkville?) and really love them. Very clever (genius?) approach.

How about those dynamikks.. looks mean !

Ultima%20S%20+%20Sub.jpg


Although I love DIY, seeing the building of these types of pyramid construction really put me off... various angles and all. Not something one could finish in an afternoon! ... If I really have the space I think it's worth to buy a 'finished' horn be it the real unity or similar iterations.
 
How about those dynamikks.. looks mean !

They all look like variations on modernist sink basins to me.. :p

-and I'll take the more "organic" look of the PSE-144 (..assuming it's reasonably linear, which unfortunately it doesn't appear to me to be).
 

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The way the mids tap in PSE-144, is very similar to the Unity (similar horn geometries at the tap point, elliptical for PSE-144 and circular for Unity). Tom mentioned that the Unity had problems because the mids tapped into high pressure area (due to the horn geometry) and so the compression driver output was negatively affected. So, in Syngery the horn tap point was made rectangular (its a rectangular horn) and the mids moved to the corners where the pressure was less and hence the problem was minimized enough so it became a non issue.

The PSE-144 will have similar issues as the Unity.

1) How does the PSE-144 deal with this?
2) Is this a real issue?
3) Is this ill effect SPL dependent? The reason why I ask is that the Synergy is used in high SPL app whereas PSE-144 is for home use and very low SPL in comparison, if the effect is SPL dependent then it may not be an issue in home situation?
4) Which frequency band of the mids effect which band of the crossover, I believe its the extreme bands ie the 200hz from mid (or whatever HP for mid is) badly affects the 14k (or highest audible freq) output of the CD, is this correct?

Thanks,
Goldy
 
My set of three PSE-144's should arrive tomorrow. They are in pieces as a DIY kit. Drivers are purchased separately. No passive crossover - mine will be active XO.

Here's a plot from Paul Spencer: "The crossover points are 250 Hz and 1.25k with slightly more high frequency extension than predicated (20k).The mid section is even smoother than before (+/- 0.3) and the treble response is also very smooth (+/- 1 dB). This measurement is an unsmoothed gated far field plot (measured outdoors high above the ground) with DSP filters - no more than the most basic MiniDSP unit provides.

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
 
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