I just rang Peerless dealer here, he charges 130 Euro per piece.
There is an ad for very slightly used pair of no longer available XLS 830500 for 210, what do you think of that?
http://www.tymphany.com/files/resources/dpeerless/830500.pdf
There is an ad for very slightly used pair of no longer available XLS 830500 for 210, what do you think of that?
http://www.tymphany.com/files/resources/dpeerless/830500.pdf
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yep, that makes it a bit too complicated 
What about this HiVi (Swans) D10.8, it is reduced form 282 to 159 Eur?
Kamm Lautsprecher Internet-Shop : Swans D10.8 Tieftöner
I also found Monacor SPH-225C for 80 Euro/each
http://www.bluearan.com/index.php?id=MON104130
What about this HiVi (Swans) D10.8, it is reduced form 282 to 159 Eur?
Kamm Lautsprecher Internet-Shop : Swans D10.8 Tieftöner
I also found Monacor SPH-225C for 80 Euro/each
http://www.bluearan.com/index.php?id=MON104130
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For room acoustics, putting padding in corners is much more effective than big panels covering walls or windows. Walls reflect, corners ring. You actually want more wall reflections since their problems get averaged out by other room wall reflections if there's enough of them.
I nailed 2 inch diameter cotton rope from a fabric store into many of the corners of my living room, and now when I clap my hands the audible ringing which was pretty bad, is now almost completely gone. Be aware though that cotton rope is very flamable. Any kind of foam rubber would work great for this too. This would be particularly important for opera music.
The drivers you are talking about look great, I'd cross them over at 2 - 2.5kHZ, based on looking at the published frequency response graphs. You will never get much bass out of 6 - 8 inch drivers in a large room. I'd highpass these at around 100 - 125 HZ, and use a powered sub-woofer for the low end.
Most powered woofers have a built in low pass filter (usually adjustable level and cutoff frequency) , and active EQ making them acoustically pretty flat down to 30HZ or so. I would suggest puting these small speakers on top of the woofers and calling it good, but it's very important to have the tweeters, and preferably the midrange driver as well, at least a meter off the floor.
To high pass the 2 way system for use with a subwoofer, you'd want to put a cap in series with the small system. You'd need to measure the impedance of the small system (6 inch in the enclosure) at the frequency you want to high pass it at, in order for the calculation to be somewhat accurate. It's not likely to be very close to the nominal rating of the driver (8ohms?).
The published graph for the 6 inch says it is 6 ohms at 100HZ, which would imply that the cap size would need to be 265uF. It would have to be a non-polarized electrolytic capacitor.
An active filter ahead of the poweramp would be much more accurate. Since the published impedance curve of that driver is changing real fast in that frequency range, and since they measured it with a very different baffle type (usually on a wall of an anechoic room), the calculation of that cap size could be pretty far off, but it gives you a "ballpark" (approximate) idea of the size the cap would need to be.
Those cabinets looked great, but a port has to be very accurately tuned for a given driver to be more of an asset than damaging. I'd go with a closed box myself. If the low end sags, turn up the bass control on the preamp. Room acoustics and Fletcher-Munson issues necessitate good tone controls wither way. Don't be fooled by those "high-end" preamps that don't have any tone controls. those are for fools. Any real musician will know that. I use a 4 section Baxandall tone circuit I developed and built myself, so I could really get it right.
Adding the woofers will make all the difference in the overall sound. You may well find that the woofers work better with the room acoustics if you place them near a wall, but not a 3 surface corner where they will cause room ringing. Then you'd want to put the small speaker cabs on stands to get the tweeters at least 1 meter off the floor.
I nailed 2 inch diameter cotton rope from a fabric store into many of the corners of my living room, and now when I clap my hands the audible ringing which was pretty bad, is now almost completely gone. Be aware though that cotton rope is very flamable. Any kind of foam rubber would work great for this too. This would be particularly important for opera music.
The drivers you are talking about look great, I'd cross them over at 2 - 2.5kHZ, based on looking at the published frequency response graphs. You will never get much bass out of 6 - 8 inch drivers in a large room. I'd highpass these at around 100 - 125 HZ, and use a powered sub-woofer for the low end.
Most powered woofers have a built in low pass filter (usually adjustable level and cutoff frequency) , and active EQ making them acoustically pretty flat down to 30HZ or so. I would suggest puting these small speakers on top of the woofers and calling it good, but it's very important to have the tweeters, and preferably the midrange driver as well, at least a meter off the floor.
To high pass the 2 way system for use with a subwoofer, you'd want to put a cap in series with the small system. You'd need to measure the impedance of the small system (6 inch in the enclosure) at the frequency you want to high pass it at, in order for the calculation to be somewhat accurate. It's not likely to be very close to the nominal rating of the driver (8ohms?).
The published graph for the 6 inch says it is 6 ohms at 100HZ, which would imply that the cap size would need to be 265uF. It would have to be a non-polarized electrolytic capacitor.
An active filter ahead of the poweramp would be much more accurate. Since the published impedance curve of that driver is changing real fast in that frequency range, and since they measured it with a very different baffle type (usually on a wall of an anechoic room), the calculation of that cap size could be pretty far off, but it gives you a "ballpark" (approximate) idea of the size the cap would need to be.
Those cabinets looked great, but a port has to be very accurately tuned for a given driver to be more of an asset than damaging. I'd go with a closed box myself. If the low end sags, turn up the bass control on the preamp. Room acoustics and Fletcher-Munson issues necessitate good tone controls wither way. Don't be fooled by those "high-end" preamps that don't have any tone controls. those are for fools. Any real musician will know that. I use a 4 section Baxandall tone circuit I developed and built myself, so I could really get it right.
Adding the woofers will make all the difference in the overall sound. You may well find that the woofers work better with the room acoustics if you place them near a wall, but not a 3 surface corner where they will cause room ringing. Then you'd want to put the small speaker cabs on stands to get the tweeters at least 1 meter off the floor.
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I am pretty much now on tvrgeek's path of making only two really good woofers and keeping B&W 601, since I do like the sound of it.
Only question is which bass drivers to buy, don't want to make an overkill, would like to spend as little as the rest of the system is worth.
Unfortunately, I have an preamp with no tone controls
I would listen the speakers bi-amped with my Cyrus Straight Line + Cyrus XPA power amp, since Straight Line has a pre-out RCAs.
I could also add a PSX unit if more power is necessary, but I am not sure that the funds would allow it
So if Bi-Amping which electronic XO will you use
If this was me building I would use those Peerless 12 inch woofers in a big sealed box for Qtc of below 0.7
The equal power point of music is around~300 Hz so another power amp of approximately the same power as your current Cyrus will be needed
I'm not familiar with the B&W 601, are they a sealed or a ported box?
If ported then you could seal them [ stuff the existing port with an old sock to start with] and you will get a better match to the woofer, the Peerless woofer is a good choice as the response in the pass band is very smooth. It may be possible to use a first order passive design on the woofer in which case the only additional cost would be an appropriate inductor coil, but more probably you would need a second order passive XO on the woofer so a large capacitor and a bigger coil will then be needed, adding the woofer will increase the SPL and the power handling
Alternatively 2 really good subwoofer amplifiers to build into the woofer boxes and I'm sorry but I have no experience there.
Do some room treatments at the same time, that is a wise use of funds and time
If this was me building I would use those Peerless 12 inch woofers in a big sealed box for Qtc of below 0.7
The equal power point of music is around~300 Hz so another power amp of approximately the same power as your current Cyrus will be needed
I'm not familiar with the B&W 601, are they a sealed or a ported box?
If ported then you could seal them [ stuff the existing port with an old sock to start with] and you will get a better match to the woofer, the Peerless woofer is a good choice as the response in the pass band is very smooth. It may be possible to use a first order passive design on the woofer in which case the only additional cost would be an appropriate inductor coil, but more probably you would need a second order passive XO on the woofer so a large capacitor and a bigger coil will then be needed, adding the woofer will increase the SPL and the power handling
Alternatively 2 really good subwoofer amplifiers to build into the woofer boxes and I'm sorry but I have no experience there.
Do some room treatments at the same time, that is a wise use of funds and time
don't have a clue yet
Peerless 830669 (130 Euro/piece)?
Cyrus XPA is exactly the same - 2x50W RMS
ported, front port
would rather avoid that, too much of a task
On contrary, that is an easy task, this room is already the closest thing to a recording studio (and I know what that is, trust me
)
don't have a clue yet
Peerless 830669 (130 Euro/piece)?
My best bet
Cyrus XPA is exactly the same - 2x50W RMS
When Bi-Amping the output has a beneficial effect and it seems as if the amps are much more powerful than you would think- it may feel as if the amp has 400 watts
ported, front port
On contrary, that is an easy task, this room is already the closest thing to a recording studio (and I know what that is, trust me
Time and money already well spent then
)
I use the cheap Behringer XO
Behringer: SUPER-X PRO CX2310
2-Way for my party system
Behringer: SUPER-X PRO CX3400
3-Way for my stereo
It's a cheap way of finding out if this method is for you, they often go on sale too, they have a reputation for being noisy and causing distortion but when crossing low [ 80/250Hz] I can't here anything bad
Yes of course but given the huge size and cost of low DCR inductors it is often cheaper to go active. The inductor needs to have as low a resistance as possible or efficiency of the woofer suffers and SPL falls. Assuming you want to cross low enough to allow your current speakers to shine and also assuming that you seal the current boxes so they have an existing second order roll-off [ a characteristic of all sealed boxes ] around 100Hz and you high-pass them at 200 Hz with a second order XO to give a 4th order response and use a similar 2nd order low-pass on the woofer.
Assume these are a pure resistance at 8Ohms and you want excellent SQ and maximum efficiency.
Also assume you want to use what is called a Linkwitz-Riley XO design.
For each box you need 2*~ 40uF capacitors and 2*~10mH coils, to avoid those losses I mentioned the DCR of the coil needs to be kept to less than 10% of the drivers DCR
10% 0f 5.6R = 0.56 Ohms
You need 2 coils and 2 capacitors for each pair of speakers
10.0 mH 18 AWG P cored inductor 0.57ohms DCR 5063 10 mH 18 AWG P cored inductor 0.57ohms DCR [6275] - $24.40 : SpeakerBug, capacitors, inductors, resistors, crossover parts, speaker supplies
27.0uF Jantzen Audio CrossCap 27uF Capacitor, 400V dc, MKP Metallised polypropylene Capacitor, audio capacitor, crossover parts [227] - $10.50 : SpeakerBug, capacitors, inductors, resistors, crossover parts, speaker supplies
So here on OZ that would cost me $150- plus postage
I only paid $99- AUD for the 2-Way Behringer XO
I hope that helps, other much better designers will hopefully chime in now and correct my mistakes and assumptions
There are other ways of making a fixed frequency XO which involve kits and soldering, I'm a soldering klutz
Assume these are a pure resistance at 8Ohms and you want excellent SQ and maximum efficiency.
Also assume you want to use what is called a Linkwitz-Riley XO design.
For each box you need 2*~ 40uF capacitors and 2*~10mH coils, to avoid those losses I mentioned the DCR of the coil needs to be kept to less than 10% of the drivers DCR
10% 0f 5.6R = 0.56 Ohms
You need 2 coils and 2 capacitors for each pair of speakers
10.0 mH 18 AWG P cored inductor 0.57ohms DCR 5063 10 mH 18 AWG P cored inductor 0.57ohms DCR [6275] - $24.40 : SpeakerBug, capacitors, inductors, resistors, crossover parts, speaker supplies
27.0uF Jantzen Audio CrossCap 27uF Capacitor, 400V dc, MKP Metallised polypropylene Capacitor, audio capacitor, crossover parts [227] - $10.50 : SpeakerBug, capacitors, inductors, resistors, crossover parts, speaker supplies
So here on OZ that would cost me $150- plus postage
I only paid $99- AUD for the 2-Way Behringer XO
I hope that helps, other much better designers will hopefully chime in now and correct my mistakes and assumptions
There are other ways of making a fixed frequency XO which involve kits and soldering, I'm a soldering klutz
I'll certainly second the motion for an active crossover... I'm not a soldering klutz, but I prefer a crossover I can adjust, and don't have to measure to make sure it's doing what I want it to. DSP will do what you want, where as pure analog, you're at the mercy of the parts tolerances. Passive is even worse, because you have to measure the impedance of the system to calculate what the parts should be, then measure the results to find out it's not quite right....
You could just make a box for the Peerless woofers and treat the system as a 2.5 by using just a coil in series with the woofer. It wont be perfect but it will give you an idea of what is achievable and has the advantage of being quick and cheap and if you don't solder the parts are reusable
Heck I want it all.
Adding the .5 woofer should give you that missing octave perhaps an octave and a half.
Only done 1 TL speaker and it was a subwoofer the size of a large [ and I do mean LARGE] refrigerator.
You'll need somebody elses help with TL design who has Martins tables; I'm just giving some basics but if you have the physical space I think that woofer works in a TL; it was designed for sealed but works in a large ported so should work in the larger TL box too. But .5 sealed is the easy way to get going.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pm4fQRl72k
space could be found, I am not sure if I want two of those in case I ever move from here
ok, so it is settled, will try to find the best possible price somewhere in EU for two Peerless SLS 830669, and first try to build a .5 version, then see what happens next.
Thanks a lot for all your help folks, hopefully you'll stay with me, looks like I'm gonna need more of it
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