OK, I made a mistake. I had the bass control +4 dB not + 6.
I messed with speaker placement and got much better results. I was able to put the tone controls flat and got it to go - + 1 dB from 400-10k a 5 dB dip at 300hz 3db down from reference from 250hz -100hz then flat to 50hz and -4db at 40 hz.
So I got rid of the 80hz peak but lost some energy in the 100-300hz range. Sounds more dynamic and quick. Better resolution in the low end. Still missing top end but it's a little better with speaker placement. Sound stage has opened up quite a bit, also.
I messed with speaker placement and got much better results. I was able to put the tone controls flat and got it to go - + 1 dB from 400-10k a 5 dB dip at 300hz 3db down from reference from 250hz -100hz then flat to 50hz and -4db at 40 hz.
So I got rid of the 80hz peak but lost some energy in the 100-300hz range. Sounds more dynamic and quick. Better resolution in the low end. Still missing top end but it's a little better with speaker placement. Sound stage has opened up quite a bit, also.
You blew your drivers (sub) and equipment/material (amps) after you got in the forum ?! 
I guess it was some malfunction, not a bad judgment?
Also be more careful with active crossover/amps. Do the speakers (satellites) have active or passive crossover? If active have a cap as protection for the tweeters.
What model of Peerless 5.25" do you have (references/model)?
Here a project with Peerless HDS 134 (850488) + Vifa XT25TG30-04 1" Ring (and DX25TG)
http://www.d-s-t.com.au/data/Peerless/850488.pdf
The Madisound Speaker Store
I guess it was some malfunction, not a bad judgment?
Also be more careful with active crossover/amps. Do the speakers (satellites) have active or passive crossover? If active have a cap as protection for the tweeters.
What model of Peerless 5.25" do you have (references/model)?
Here a project with Peerless HDS 134 (850488) + Vifa XT25TG30-04 1" Ring (and DX25TG)
http://www.d-s-t.com.au/data/Peerless/850488.pdf
The Madisound Speaker Store
XT25 is a great tweeter if crossed over above 3500. Distortion is too high at lower crossover. Used well, it is superb. The hard part is I know of no mid-bass that can cross that high, forcing you into a three-way.
Yes, ALWAYS, ALWAYS have a DC blocking cap on the tweeter when using an active crossover. Otherwise you will let the magic smoke out of the voice coil sooner or later.
Yes, ALWAYS, ALWAYS have a DC blocking cap on the tweeter when using an active crossover. Otherwise you will let the magic smoke out of the voice coil sooner or later.
You can use the XT25 perfectly well a lot lower than 3500Hz! It will do 2k 4th order acoustic, but that's about as low as it will go, I'd recommend 2.5k 4th order just to be safe. The XT19 however would prefer things around the 3.5k mark.
Ironically the only time I've ever blown a tweeter was when I was using a protection cap! This was a long time ago though. For the past few years I've not been using the protection cap and I haven't blown a tweeter yet. My preamp doesn't have muting relays and I've sent a few power on/off transients through the system and they've survived that without a problem. The DC protection in the amplifier is built to fire very quickly on the tweeter channels though, so this might be helping along with the solid state relays.
Ironically the only time I've ever blown a tweeter was when I was using a protection cap! This was a long time ago though. For the past few years I've not been using the protection cap and I haven't blown a tweeter yet. My preamp doesn't have muting relays and I've sent a few power on/off transients through the system and they've survived that without a problem. The DC protection in the amplifier is built to fire very quickly on the tweeter channels though, so this might be helping along with the solid state relays.
Well, I'll keep using it higher. I see it kind of at 2500 it is a fair tweeter, at 3500 it is a great tweeter. It just can't push enough air to go that low for me. The ring that goes that low is the SB29, but I found it not the smoothest, outdone by the HDS and Seas domes. I do wonder if the Santori is smoother, or just an expensive SB29. It does have a better chamber which is a SB29 problem. The XT25 is about the tops for value/performance. We all have our preferences.
The Satori gets a nice decoupled and all metal faceplate. It isn't ludicrously expensive either. Granted it's no bargain tweeter, but as a flagship product, with most likely flagship performance, it's probably worth every penny (compared to other flagships). I've seen measurements of it and they are nice, I'd just like it if Zaph measured it so we could get a direct comparison, although that's unlikely to happy with his activity lately (ie none).
The XT25 actually has more linear volume displacement than the HDS and SEAS domes, it's just that it cannot make the most of it. Most of the XT25s troubles though are 2nd order related with the other HD products remaining very low significantly below where the 2nd order starts to rise. This could be due to mechanical imbalances between the in and out stroke, but where they come from really doesn't matter. The fact that the motor has a high amount of linear excursion should ensure that the higher, and more objectionable, harmonics keep remaining low even if the wick is turned up. As far as I am aware compression drivers exhibit rather high levels of HD2 too, but keep the rest low.
I have used the XT25 and love the way it sounds. Out of all the none waveguide loaded tweeters that I've tried, it sounds the nicest to my ears. If I needed something not so capable down low it'd be my pick, unless I wanted to try another tweeter just for kicks. The SEAS DXT would get my vote if I needed something very robust in a standard 104mm faceplate. If I wanted small, I'd either go for an XT or DX variant without a faceplate, or the neo SB dimple dome. That is of course if the drivers are available and fit the budget.
How capable the XT25 is mind you all depends on how loud you really want to be able to crank it.
In terms of this thread though, I have used the MDT30, which appears to be the chambered version of the MDT29. I'm not a fan of the way the MDT30 sounds, it's too forward for my liking, but this could be due to the system it is used in, rather than the tweeter itself. The MDT30 is also pretty extended in my measurements.
As has been pointed out already the xover design can probably be tweaked to provide a bit of high end lift, but I seriously doubt the current design that the OP is using anyway. If his design is using the MDT29 without an Lpad and only has 1 Peerless 5.25" per side then something is seriously wrong. The MDT is close to 90dB sensitive with any Peerless driver that I can think of probably not doing any better than 88dB and probably a bit less, add BSC, or even don't and things still don't add up.
The XT25 actually has more linear volume displacement than the HDS and SEAS domes, it's just that it cannot make the most of it. Most of the XT25s troubles though are 2nd order related with the other HD products remaining very low significantly below where the 2nd order starts to rise. This could be due to mechanical imbalances between the in and out stroke, but where they come from really doesn't matter. The fact that the motor has a high amount of linear excursion should ensure that the higher, and more objectionable, harmonics keep remaining low even if the wick is turned up. As far as I am aware compression drivers exhibit rather high levels of HD2 too, but keep the rest low.
I have used the XT25 and love the way it sounds. Out of all the none waveguide loaded tweeters that I've tried, it sounds the nicest to my ears. If I needed something not so capable down low it'd be my pick, unless I wanted to try another tweeter just for kicks. The SEAS DXT would get my vote if I needed something very robust in a standard 104mm faceplate. If I wanted small, I'd either go for an XT or DX variant without a faceplate, or the neo SB dimple dome. That is of course if the drivers are available and fit the budget.
How capable the XT25 is mind you all depends on how loud you really want to be able to crank it.
In terms of this thread though, I have used the MDT30, which appears to be the chambered version of the MDT29. I'm not a fan of the way the MDT30 sounds, it's too forward for my liking, but this could be due to the system it is used in, rather than the tweeter itself. The MDT30 is also pretty extended in my measurements.
As has been pointed out already the xover design can probably be tweaked to provide a bit of high end lift, but I seriously doubt the current design that the OP is using anyway. If his design is using the MDT29 without an Lpad and only has 1 Peerless 5.25" per side then something is seriously wrong. The MDT is close to 90dB sensitive with any Peerless driver that I can think of probably not doing any better than 88dB and probably a bit less, add BSC, or even don't and things still don't add up.
I agree the XT25 is very nice. Maybe it is because I require it to handle big band in a decent size room I am pushing it a bit. In my bare tweeter pillow tests, using female vocals, electronic crossover etc, I found the Seas 27TBFC/G to edge it out, but at more money, with the HDS following at a lot more money, In my system, I am not disappointed. The soft dome version did not have the clarity of the metal in the upper treble. Breakup is no problem if the amp is well behaved ( HCA 1200, so that is covered.) So my last set of XT's wound up as surrounds. I have only played with one older Morel, though not impressed, it is not a proper reflection on their current line. Trans Lab is next on my list. Zaph really likes the DXT too. So far, I found the XT25 the only tweeter under $50 I can stand. I also found the easier to use a tweeter is, the happier I am with the system. ( Dayton 1 1/8 fails THAT test.)
I found Joni Mitchel played to just a tweeter sitting in a pile of pillows to tell me more, quicker, about a tweeter than any other test. If it sounds good there, then it is up to me not to screw it up.
I found Joni Mitchel played to just a tweeter sitting in a pile of pillows to tell me more, quicker, about a tweeter than any other test. If it sounds good there, then it is up to me not to screw it up.
Joni in a pile of pillows I like it, although if this is filterless I would only point out that some tweeters might not be happy working like this and might be stellar when filtered, some ribbons for example.
The DQ25 is pleasing on the ears at the low end of the price spectrum. It's a shame it's not officially supported by Tymphany and that only a few places seem to stock it. None are in the EU unfortunately, at least as far as I can tell
The metal dome, with phase shield, probalby has slightly better upper dispersion, something I actually dislike in tweeters lol, compared to the fabric. The DXT was my first forray into waveguides and as an experience, it was an enlightening one. It's a shame that they don't make a bigger version and that waveguides can be quite hard to come by too, especially 6" and smaller ones.
I like it, although if this is filterless I would only point out that some tweeters might not be happy working like this and might be stellar when filtered, some ribbons for example.The DQ25 is pleasing on the ears at the low end of the price spectrum. It's a shame it's not officially supported by Tymphany and that only a few places seem to stock it. None are in the EU unfortunately, at least as far as I can tell
The metal dome, with phase shield, probalby has slightly better upper dispersion, something I actually dislike in tweeters lol, compared to the fabric. The DXT was my first forray into waveguides and as an experience, it was an enlightening one. It's a shame that they don't make a bigger version and that waveguides can be quite hard to come by too, especially 6" and smaller ones.
The left channel in my EQ has a problem and caused the whole left side of the system to fry. The HCA-1500 was bridged, so it's gone. Down to the GFA-535. I only had an active crossover between the sub and main speakers. The 2-way mains have a passive crossover. I have a Sonicraft SC-1042 with a KG-5150 plate amp that I can use, although now I am using the 2-ways full range. It's amazing how much low end the Peerless 5's have.Good output to 40Hz.
I am using old TO-125r which go about 87 dB. The Morels are 89dB. That is within 2 dB but highest output in my measuring results from the tweeter was 83dB @4kHz and 82dB from the Peerless driver @ 600Hz and 1.6kHz. The rest of the measurements were 81 dB with a dip @ 2.5kHz (79dB).
I went back and looked at the manufacturers FR plot for the MDT29 and it does roll off above 10kHz quite a bit. I don't know how I missed that when I was looking at this tweeter. I play drums and like to hear cymbals! Most ears roll off above 16kHz and some even earlier (like mine I'm sure, from playing drums/loud music).
In the end I replaced the diaphragm in the MDT29. Still not happy with these tweeters but it is time to build a new set of 2-ways. I built these about 18 years ago. I also have another Shiva in a smaller box tuned to 25hz that I could use for a sub. We shall see. I really liked the HCA1500 so I may find one on ebay.
I have always wanted to use the Eton drivers with a metal dome so I might go that way. Which reminds me, I also have another 2-way with the Nomex 5.25" Peerless drivers tuned to 70 hz (BR) with Vifa D19-05-06 3/4" aluminum domes with no crossover except a cap on the tweeter at 6kHz and really like the sound of these.
Down to the GFA-535. I only had an active crossover between the sub and main speakers. The 2-way mains have a passive crossover. I have a Sonicraft SC-1042 with a KG-5150 plate amp that I can use, although now I am using the 2-ways full range. It's amazing how much low end the Peerless 5's have.Good output to 40Hz.I am using old TO-125r which go about 87 dB. The Morels are 89dB. That is within 2 dB but highest output in my measuring results from the tweeter was 83dB @4kHz and 82dB from the Peerless driver @ 600Hz and 1.6kHz. The rest of the measurements were 81 dB with a dip @ 2.5kHz (79dB).
I went back and looked at the manufacturers FR plot for the MDT29 and it does roll off above 10kHz quite a bit. I don't know how I missed that when I was looking at this tweeter. I play drums and like to hear cymbals!
Most ears roll off above 16kHz and some even earlier (like mine I'm sure, from playing drums/loud music).In the end I replaced the diaphragm in the MDT29. Still not happy with these tweeters but it is time to build a new set of 2-ways. I built these about 18 years ago. I also have another Shiva in a smaller box tuned to 25hz that I could use for a sub. We shall see. I really liked the HCA1500 so I may find one on ebay.
I have always wanted to use the Eton drivers with a metal dome so I might go that way. Which reminds me, I also have another 2-way with the Nomex 5.25" Peerless drivers tuned to 70 hz (BR) with Vifa D19-05-06 3/4" aluminum domes with no crossover except a cap on the tweeter at 6kHz and really like the sound of these.
I designed a small 2-way and it came out almost identical to the ZAPH SR-17, so I bought the kit. It was very good, but I liked the aluminum done tweeters better over the supplied soft dome. The soft dome did not have the detail at the very top end. The Seas have far more top end than the Morel, so you may like them.
Some people have had difficulties with the SR-71. My guess is they did not follow John's instructions exactly. Something like a sharp front baffle edge destroys them completely. 3/4 radius on all 12 sides is what they need.
Been looking at the Eaton myself, as well as Trans Lab. The Seas is so darn good for half the price, it is tough to take the plunge and experiment.
Some people have had difficulties with the SR-71. My guess is they did not follow John's instructions exactly. Something like a sharp front baffle edge destroys them completely. 3/4 radius on all 12 sides is what they need.
Been looking at the Eaton myself, as well as Trans Lab. The Seas is so darn good for half the price, it is tough to take the plunge and experiment.
The Morels were designed for 1st order filters which flattens LF ( look at anyone one who use 1st order filters with measurements ~ mostly domes mounted to horns ) listening ~20% off axis, ( non toed in), they extend out to 20K and transition better with a wide dispersion mid-bass . I think perhaps they can sound dull to ppl who (older folks hehe ) prefer metal domes which AFAIK all have HF breakup and use phase shields for wild on axis response ( acoustical band-aids ?)
To my ears when ppl say a speaker sounds "dull" I tend to think that means more accurate on a "correctly" designed crossover. There are small full range and metal ( exciting hehe ) drivers for them play with.
To my ears when ppl say a speaker sounds "dull" I tend to think that means more accurate on a "correctly" designed crossover. There are small full range and metal ( exciting hehe ) drivers for them play with.
Then you can do some type of a 3-Way with the two identical woofers (and the new tweeters).
You only need HF extension when you have very good bass response (extension).
Did you mention the model type of 5" in response to my question on #22?
"What model of Peerless 5.25" do you have (references/model)?"
(after you answer the previous question)
Do you know the Mk (makes/model years) of the Adire Audio Shivas?
Here some projects/alignments for them having in mind that a 3-Way alignment can have very different Q because of the crossover and mid-bass.
Alternate drivers 2
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/252023-designing-shelf-ported-box-shivas.html
Do you know the Mk (makes/model years) of the Adire Audio Shivas?
Here some projects/alignments for them having in mind that a 3-Way alignment can have very different Q because of the crossover and mid-bass.
Alternate drivers 2
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/252023-designing-shelf-ported-box-shivas.html
I don't know the model or year Shiva that I have but I bought them in the late 90's. The Peerless is TO125R.
Infinia, I don't think the Morels that I have sound bad at all (or dull for that matter), I just prefer a little more extreme top end.
I looked at some of the Zaph stuff, but didn't see anything that I was interested in. Besides, I like designing my own systems. I understand my crossover isn't optimum for the drivers I have.
Infinia, I don't think the Morels that I have sound bad at all (or dull for that matter), I just prefer a little more extreme top end.
I looked at some of the Zaph stuff, but didn't see anything that I was interested in. Besides, I like designing my own systems. I understand my crossover isn't optimum for the drivers I have.
Morel MDT 29 has ferrofluid cooling that also can get dry.
ferrofluid cooled tweeters.... - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums
Peerless 832591 - 130 WR 26/72 PPB (TO125R) (1591)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/214180-2-way-crossover-design-help.html
Oh, after rereading, I have the 12" Shiva's. I built one for my father that he doesn't use anymore in a much smaller box than mine. I was going to swap his driver to my box or just use the 10" Sonicraft with the plate amp for now.
For now though, I am just using the Peerless and Morels. They sound just fine and have a flat response to 31 hz with a 10 dB boost. Can't crank them real loud but certainly 95 dB is plenty, for now. I mostly listen to classic rock, metal, blues and jazz.
Just want to try a new system. I have never messed with Kevlar drivers but have heard they add plenty more detail than others. I have always liked soft domes and have used them extensively, but I think I like metal domes better. So, I thought I would make a Kevlar/metal dome 2-way, just to make life hard on myself!
Maybe it will sound too clinical to me Maybe I will love it.
I owned a recording studio and played drums in bands for 20 years, so I look for a certain sound. Dynamic and wide range with quick transients would best describe it.
Hard to come by in a home audio system, especially considering most recordings aren't very good. I don't know what most engineers are thinking with some of these recordings.Modern (electric) Jazz recordings are usually pretty good, but classic rock is all over the place, and most of it isn't very good. Metal is hit and miss.
Sorry for the rant.
Back to the topic, I will start a new thread for a new 2-way since I have the current 2-way working good enough to listen to without getting a headache!
Thank you all
Erik
For now though, I am just using the Peerless and Morels. They sound just fine and have a flat response to 31 hz with a 10 dB boost. Can't crank them real loud but certainly 95 dB is plenty, for now. I mostly listen to classic rock, metal, blues and jazz.
Just want to try a new system. I have never messed with Kevlar drivers but have heard they add plenty more detail than others. I have always liked soft domes and have used them extensively, but I think I like metal domes better. So, I thought I would make a Kevlar/metal dome 2-way, just to make life hard on myself!
Maybe it will sound too clinical to me
Maybe I will love it. I owned a recording studio and played drums in bands for 20 years, so I look for a certain sound. Dynamic and wide range with quick transients would best describe it.
Hard to come by in a home audio system, especially considering most recordings aren't very good. I don't know what most engineers are thinking with some of these recordings.Modern (electric) Jazz recordings are usually pretty good, but classic rock is all over the place, and most of it isn't very good. Metal is hit and miss.
Sorry for the rant.
Back to the topic, I will start a new thread for a new 2-way since I have the current 2-way working good enough to listen to without getting a headache!
Thank you all
Erik
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