virtually auditioning speakers - by the spec numbers.

[EsoBOFH]

Folks,

I'm looking at building a pair of bookshelf speakers for my office. I am really looking for something with high quality sound, on a budget. My intent is to pair them with a powered subwoofer (kenwood sw103).

I have read through a number of bookshelf builds, and compared a lot of kits on offer, and I've brought it down to about 3 options.

#1. I've heard nothing but rave reviews on the Overnight Sensations. At $119, they squarely fit in my budget for initial outlay. That said, shipping adds significantly to the cost (i can't calculate it now, because it's out of stock, but shipping from PE to canada seems ridiculous).

#2. The Dayton Audio B652 are ridiculously cheap, but have been getting rave reviews. they end up being about the same cost as the other two options, once shipping is factored in. I kind of had my heart set on building something though.

#3. Option - the local guy. CSS is a short drive from me, and Bob seems like a good guy to deal with (and has been recommended by other members). He has this kit available;

CSS CHBWERT
MA CHBW-70 CSS ERT26 2 way kit (Pair)

at $110 it compares to the overnight sensations in terms of costs. I would have to build the cabinet, vs. paying for shipping from PE. the components look to be better quality.

I doubt anyone has listened to CSS kit and the Overnight sensations, such that they could give me a comparison.. but i'm having difficulty comparing the specs in a way that makes sense.

Can anyone tell me, by the numbers on the main drivers, which would you go for?

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

thanks!!

 

[vinylkid58]

#3. Option - the local guy. CSS is a short drive from me, and Bob seems like a good guy to deal with (and has been recommended by other members). He has this kit available;

CSS CHBWERT
MA CHBW-70 CSS ERT26 2 way kit (Pair)

at $110 it compares to the overnight sensations in terms of costs. I would have to build the cabinet, vs. paying for shipping from PE. the components look to be better quality.

I doubt anyone has listened to CSS kit and the Overnight sensations, such that they could give me a comparison.. but i'm having difficulty comparing the specs in a way that makes sense.

The CSS drivers are a known quantity, and a good value. While I haven't heard this particular kit, I've heard many other MA offerings (and also several other CSS speakers), and own a few myself. So maybe I'm a bit biased. Bob is a good guy, and will support his products if there are any issues.

I got to hear the Overnight Sensations at the local diy "fest" a couple years ago. They were not a bad sounding speaker, but were bested by a single driver Planet_10 design, based around the now OOP CSS EL70 driver.

jeff

 

[sreten]

Hi,

The Dayton B652's are poor in absolute terms.

X-LS Classic kit are worth considering.

As are
Zaph|Audio - ZMV5 - MCM / Vifa 5" System
and Zaph|Audio - 4" Bargain Mini

rgds, sreten.

For an office, at a desk, with a sub I'd tend
to go for a 3" FR , or 1.5 way, YMMV.

 

[EsoBOFH]

For an office, at a desk, with a sub I'd tend
to go for a 3" FR , or 1.5 way, YMMV.

Thanks Sreten... what's a 1.5 way?

 

[PeteMcK]

1.5 way = fullranger driver with helper woofer;
I'd say support your local guy, who has a good rep, otherwise he'll disappear & you'll have no choice but to buy Chinese drivers....

re:"Can anyone tell me, by the numbers..." - first thing to look at is a frequency response graph

 

[harvylogan]

I'd say support your local guy, who has a good rep, otherwise he'll disappear & you'll have no choice but to buy Chinese drivers....

Agreed

 

[mikejennens]

I have a pair of MarkAudio CHP-70's in a Planet-10-designed box I use for nearfield. I can't say enough good about them and you'd be hard pressed to find a better sounding speaker for the money. And CSS sells them. I listen to a lot of acoustic guitar and other instrumental/smooth jazz and they sound fantastic; no other way to describe them. Great for vocals too. If you're a metal head, they probably won't do it.
Overall, I'm a big fan of MarkAudio speakers.

Creative Sound - Product Details

Mike

 

[Richard Ellis]

Of the two drivers you want "facing off" the HiVi vs, the Mark. Running the simulator,
The HiVi performs a bit better getting you down to -3.03Db@38.37 Hz.
The Mark driver gets to -3Db@49.35 Hz.
The HiVi comes in at 10.5 liters (internal volume), The Mark, 8.7 liters.
Both ported, 47X226mm long, 47X164mm long respectively. I would bet the HiVi driver is half the price of the Mark driver!


___________________________________________________Rick.........

 

[EsoBOFH]

Of the two drivers you want "facing off" the HiVi vs, the Mark. Running the simulator,
The HiVi performs a bit better getting you down to -3.03Db@38.37 Hz.
The Mark driver gets to -3Db@49.35 Hz.
The HiVi comes in at 10.5 liters (internal volume), The Mark, 8.7 liters.
Both ported, 47X226mm long, 47X164mm long respectively. I would bet the HiVi driver is half the price of the Mark driver.

Thanks Rick - as a business analyst, number speak to me, so I appreciate the objective analysis.

That said, let me check my understanding of what these numbers are saying...

From other reading, I understand that 3Db is the threshold where humans are able to perceive a change in output/volume/sound. So, the hivi are able to get as low as 38.37 Hz before a drop in performance is audible, and the marks 49.35 Hz - so is that simply telling me the hivi have better bass response, or should I infer some other difference in quality/design/performance with these numbers?

If I'm running these guys with a sub crossed at a point higher than their bottom end, have I effectively negated the difference in performance that you've noted here?

I gather the difference in size means I can get away with a smaller enclosure with the marks?

As an aside, the marks actually come in $4 less than the hivi once I factor shipping.

Again, thanks - learning so much from all you smart guys!

 

[pacificblue]

Virtual auditioning is absolutely impossible. You have got to listen to speakers to find out whether they suit your listening taste and situation. Even a frequency response diagram only tells a part of the story, and the lowest f-3 point does not automatically make it the best speaker of a group.

One word of warning: most speakers are optimised for free-standing operation, even so called bookshelf speakers. Very few have a frequency response that takes the acoustic properties into account that you get when the speakers are actually placed in a bookshelf. Bass-reflex speakers are usually not the best solution for a bookshelf. Working into half-space boosts the lower frequency regions and easily leads to boominess. The trouble is that only few shops have the possibility to put speakers into bookshelves, and speakers that are optimised for that purpose will sound horrible when freestanding, hence not sell.

A possible compromise is to buy speakers that are designed for in-wall operation and put them in a box that fits into your bookshelf.

 

[Barleywater]

Virtual audition of speakers is possible, it requires a shared reference. If parties A and B both own speaker X, and have similar rooms, recording equipment, and headphones Y. Then:

Party A records his own speaker X with source signal J.
Party B records his own speaker X with source signal J.

Recordings are made with agreed upon microphone placement(s)

Parties A and B exchange recordings, and both parties compare their recordings.

Each party evaluates recordings and if each agrees that recordings are all similar, a state of reciprocity equilibrium is established.

Party A may then record speaker Z with signal J and send the recording to party B to make an evaluation.

David Griesinger is a professional consulting acoustician. He uses similar referencing techniques that allow him to make recordings of different concert halls, and recordings from different seats in a given hall that allow him to accurately evaluate differences in perceived sound quality based on comparison of the recordings while listening to them with referenced speaker/headphones.

 

[wintermute]

I've just book marked that page Barleywater! It looks like it has a lot of interesting information!!

Tony.

 

[pacificblue]

Virtual audition of speakers is possible, it requires a shared reference. If parties A and B both own speaker X, and have similar rooms, recording equipment, and headphones Y. Then:

...

OK, what are you proposing?
EsoBOFH, PE and Mark Audio should all buy the same recording equipment headphones and speaker X, plus a copy of signal J. Then EsoBOFH sends the architectural data of his office to PE and Mark Audio, where both build a copy of his room, record signal J on speaker X, send the files to and fro, compare and agree on their findings. After that they record signal J on all speakers EsoBOFH would potentially buy and send it to him. And all that to sell speakers for a budget of 119 $?

 

[EsoBOFH]

OK, what are you proposing?
EsoBOFH, PE and Mark Audio should all buy the same recording euquipment headphones and speaker X, plus a copy of signal J. Then EsoBOFH sends the architectural data of his office to PE and Mark Audio, where both build a copy of his room, record signal J on speaker X, send the files to and fro, compare and agree on their findings. After that they record signal J on all speakers EsoBOFH would potentially buy and send it to him. And all that to sell speakers for a budget of 119 $?

Sounds like a great plan, I'll get started on drafting plans for my office

Pacificblue - in all seriousness, I get what you're saying, "which speaker is best" largely comes down to the listeners taste, listening conditions, type of music, etc. - all highly subjective.

The intent is to get an understanding of the specs to try and make an informed decision on which speakers to buy, because I'm not able to listen to them and because I'm very new at this. At ~$100 budget, I think its fair to take a stab at it by the numbers. Anything more, I'd want to audition in person.

Can anyone speak to the data that Rick posted? Am I understanding him correctly?

 

[Richard Ellis]

Yes, this is the data I got from a free simulation available on-line winISD ...created by an enthusiast who wrote the program. A lot of guys here use it...but as usual this program (And others) are derided as not all-inclusive.
No, the interior volumes should not be altered, they should be as exact as possible according to the program. All items inside the enclosure need to be accounted for, EG. the port tube itself, the rear of the driver "intruding" into the inside dimensions.
The guys here are right, placing the enclosure up upon a bookshelf changes things...it uses the wall to "direct" bass frequencies...which will cause a specific rise in bass performance according to a myriad of variables.
Using a sub-woofer may very well make the driver comparison moot...as the subwoofer will start to come in at 40-60 Hertz, however there is a curve associated with the -3Db numbers...the HiVi curve will just about be the opposite curve of the sub-woofer "coming in"
The REAL hi tech solution nowadays is Digital signal processing. A much bally-hooed device now is the miniDSP machine. This device, using a four channel amplifier(For two tweeters, two woofers) can deliver an almost limitlessly complex crossover slopes between the woofers & tweeters. It digitally corrects such parameters as room response (room hotspots), phase shifts, baffle panel diffractions et. al.
I'm not sure if the miniDSP can but other devices will have you walk around, or select one spot in your room....you holding a microphone & the device will automatically set all the controls for a perfectly flat response....assuming you don't move the microphone.
I don't know just how deep you want to get into this.....thought I would tell you of what is possible.



________________________________________________Rick..........

 

[EsoBOFH]

Thanks all. So, are there specific speakers designed to be in close proximity to a wall? If I were to go with the CSS kit, is there something I can specifically do to allow it to perform well close to a wall? I don't have much choice for placement in my office.. in fact I was hoping to mount them directly to the wall, tweeters at ear level. What design choices would help their performance here?

Rick - the minidsp looks very cool. I will be considering that as well down the road

 

[sreten]

Hi,

Doing it by the numbers means really understanding the
numbers rather than taking just some of them into account.

Direct wall mounting ? $100 ? Zaph|Audio - 4" Bargain Mini

Personally for direct wall mounting I'd redesign the box to be frontally
bigger and much shallower and rejig the x/o for lower BSC and a lower
BSC point, all possible by the numbers using the FRD tools available.
Front mounted port too, possibly an edge slot port.

rgds, sreten.

http://audio.claub.net/Simple Loudspeaker Design ver2.pdf
FRD Consortium tools guide
Designing Crossovers with Software Only

 

[pacificblue]

The intent is to get an understanding of the specs to try and make an informed decision on which speakers to buy,

Most speaker sellers can or will not give you sufficient numbers to make an informed decision, e.g. the Dayton Audio B652 is given with 70-20.000 Hz, but they don't say if that means -3 dB or -10 dB or in which measurement conditions. Neither do they give distortion figures, tell you about membrane resonances, linearity between 70 and 20.000 Hz, achievable maximum SPL, polar response, etc. It takes a lot more than just knowing the upper and lower frequency limits to decide for or against a speaker.

Can anyone speak to the data that Rick posted? Am I understanding him correctly?

If the driver with the lower f-3dB point is cheaper than the other, it may be a bargain. More likely it means that the cheaper driver lacks in other areas, e.g. has higher distortion, membrane resonances, lower sensitivity, lower Xmax, etc.

With normal pop-music you will most of the time hear no difference between a driver that goes down to 40 Hz and another that goes down to 50 Hz.
For music with natural instruments it may make a difference, but other aspects can be more important, e.g. imaging or neutrality, and lead you to decide for the 50 Hz nevertheless.

With speakers in the 4" and 5" range you should also be aware how limited the listening level is. The lower the frequency, the lower is the achievable SPL, and -3 dB @ 40 Hz becomes an academic value, if the driver runs into its mechanical excursion limits before it reaches the listening threshold at that frequency.

What you can try is read between the lines, e.g. the Overnight Sensations are described as 'high-end near-field monitors' which means they are optimised for a listening distance of around 1 m. They will probably sound good on your desktop, but may not do so in a bookshelf a few metres away.

are there specific speakers designed to be in close proximity to a wall?

Yes, Parts-Express has a section called 'Multi-Purpose On-Wall Speakers'. No kits, though.

If I were to go with the CSS kit, is there something I can specifically do to allow it to perform well close to a wall?

Being local, the CSS people can probably give you some hints or maybe they even offer a suitable alternative port tuning and/or xover mod for your situation.
If not, listen to the speakers. If you find the bass to thick or too boomy, you can experiment with cloth in the port. The more you stuff it, the more you reduce its bass contribution. That can alleviate the situation, but probably not cure entirely.

 

[EsoBOFH]

Personally for direct wall mounting I'd redesign the box to be frontally bigger and much shallower and rejig the x/o for lower BSC and a lower BSC point, all possible by the numbers using the FRD tools available. Front mounted port too, possibly an edge slot port.

Thanks Sreten - your comments led me to this: BSC made simple (and why it may be important to you) ? Audioblog which was quite informative about BSC etc. I'll definitely look into that as I get deeper into designing my solution. I think the front mount port makes sense (if understanding it in the obvious capacity - sound forward, rather then behind, is what you meant).

If the driver with the lower f-3dB point is cheaper than the other, it may be a bargain. More likely it means that the cheaper driver lacks in other areas, e.g. has higher distortion, membrane resonances, lower sensitivity, lower Xmax, etc.

That was kind of my thinking... Markaudio seems more of an audiophile grade speaker, vs the HiVi, I could be wrong in that regard. That's kind of what I was hoping someone could expose through the specs.. i.e. one has great deep bass response, but is lacking elsewhere, etc. I guess specs can't really tell you that though.

What you can try is read between the lines, e.g. the Overnight Sensations are described as 'high-end near-field monitors' which means they are optimised for a listening distance of around 1 m. They will probably sound good on your desktop, but may not do so in a bookshelf a few metres away.

And that's exactly my situation.. I'm a desks depth away from the wall, where the speakers need to be situated. 64 cm to be exact.. with speakers placed about a meter apart.. so forming a triangle to my ears that will be 80-100-80.

Yes, Parts-Express has a section called 'Multi-Purpose On-Wall Speakers'. No kits, though.

And i'm leaning more towards kits, just because I want to play and fiddle and make the leap into DIY. Hopefully that doesn't make anyone cringe with all the questions i'm asking In that section of PE though, I notice that 95% of all the speakers there are not vented in anyway (at least that I can see). Does anyone think that making a sealed enclosure is an option here? My thinking is that I can go smaller, and avoid the issue of port noise and location being on a wall. Would there be any reason not to build these drivers into a sealed box?

Being local, the CSS people can probably give you some hints or maybe they even offer a suitable alternative port tuning and/or xover mod for your situation. If not, listen to the speakers. If you find the bass to thick or too boomy, you can experiment with cloth in the port. The more you stuff it, the more you reduce its bass contribution

That's good advice.. I kind of like the flexibility that would provide, should i decide to move them elsewhere.

 

[weltersys]

Would there be any reason not to build these drivers into a sealed box?

In a sealed box the F3 will always be higher than the driver's Fs, and the box will be considerably less efficient, more power needed for less LF output.