Yes, great video, thx Patrick
One of Dave's comments rang out for me.....
that the difference between a really good impulse response, and a slightly bad impulse, is a big difference;
but that the difference between a slightly bad and a really bad impulse, is not so different.
I keep finding the same thing, as I take a zillion measurements and listen.
Glad to hear someone talking similar.... makes me feel I'm not just wishfully trying to tie extraordinary measurements to what i hear.,,,
It sometimes seems like balancing on a pin is where a speaker starts to sing...
One of Dave's comments rang out for me.....
that the difference between a really good impulse response, and a slightly bad impulse, is a big difference;
but that the difference between a slightly bad and a really bad impulse, is not so different.
I keep finding the same thing, as I take a zillion measurements and listen.
Glad to hear someone talking similar.... makes me feel I'm not just wishfully trying to tie extraordinary measurements to what i hear.,,,
It sometimes seems like balancing on a pin is where a speaker starts to sing...
Yes, David basically spelled it out: line arrays rule the market because they're a way to sell a lot of gear.
I experience something very similar in my job (software.) For instance, I was working with a client, and his requirements were that he wanted to build a very large storage array. It needed to be big and cheap and speed wasn't important.
We were right on the verge of ordering the gear, when my client suddenly did a 180 and wanted to go with SSDs instead of spinning disks. His project didn't require speed, so it was literally pointless to use SSDs. I got the impression that he basically had money burning a hole in his pocket, and he wanted to have "the best"... Even if he didn't need it. (If anyone's curious what the app was, it was basically an app where consumers save receipts. So the data just sits there on disk for something like five years. Nobody is going back to access it on a regular basis, so it's an ideal app for relatively slow storage.)
Something similar likely happens in pro audio; the buyers have been convinced that line arrays are The Best, so they buy them even when they don't need them.
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Thank you. There are a lot of opinions, but then there are studies. It seems, within the context of what I tend to build, that the best wave guides (in the sense that they all guide waves), are the JBL, PYLE, QSC clone and Wayne's H290 type.
I have built complete projects with the Pyle, JBL, H290 from WP. They have all sounded great when building proven designs faithfully. The QSC is waiting in the wings.
Since this is an M2 thread, I would love to find out just what the magic sauce is.
Am I correct in assuming that DSP is where it's at and is indeed the sauce?
I just started a print, very rough but I'm curious about how it measures and sounds.
Will print one and make a mold from it to cast a concrete version. Through my dad I got my hands on some stuff you mix with concrete to make it way more rigid, stiff and strong, really curious how it will sound!
sorry for being ignorant, but US Speaker has the Eminence H290 (11.7" x 6.6" x 6.0" Depth), Parts-Express has the H290B _________(11.4" x 6.5" x 5.9" Depth), both ABS, 2/3 hole, 29.99, any appreciable differences in sound that I should expect (if I wasn't so ignorant)? (maybe name changed for manufacturer process revision/bookkeeping reasons) although from what I read here (diyaudio.com) in general, minor changes at throat could be significant (HOMs, timbre, other not-always-measurable criteria)
Don't waste your time, but any input appreciated.
Don't waste your time, but any input appreciated.
I envy the folks that can print their own - but then, I wouldn't go to work. Haha
I have the Parts Express H290B on the way. I HOPE they're same as the great performers I have in my 4Pi. They will be going in some nice L80t cabinets I found with no components in them. Great condition otherwise though. The wave guides will be mated with the B&C 250 sitting over LE10As. In that box it should be excellent BUT- I now have test gear and need to finish my current project.
I'm done buying any more components until I catch up (he told himself)
I have the Parts Express H290B on the way. I HOPE they're same as the great performers I have in my 4Pi. They will be going in some nice L80t cabinets I found with no components in them. Great condition otherwise though. The wave guides will be mated with the B&C 250 sitting over LE10As. In that box it should be excellent BUT- I now have test gear and need to finish my current project.
I'm done buying any more components until I catch up (he told himself)
Just finished one waveguide after 32 hours of printing...
Bolted on a BMS4550 and crossed it over at 800hz to a Faital Pro 15PR400 on a 60x60 cm flat baffle and did a quick measurement just to check if I got it kind of flat.
Coming from a 2 way synergy (300/20khz) with the same bass speaker, the first thing I didn't like was the bass speaker covering the lower midrange, but apart from that theres a lot to it that I like.
Somehow in my synergy's the mid can be a bit of transcending over the fine details, although it measures "flat" to 20khz. This was gone with this waveguide, maybe the finer transition to the CD responsible for this.
Hope to do some serious measurements later this week!
Bolted on a BMS4550 and crossed it over at 800hz to a Faital Pro 15PR400 on a 60x60 cm flat baffle and did a quick measurement just to check if I got it kind of flat.
Coming from a 2 way synergy (300/20khz) with the same bass speaker, the first thing I didn't like was the bass speaker covering the lower midrange, but apart from that theres a lot to it that I like.
Somehow in my synergy's the mid can be a bit of transcending over the fine details, although it measures "flat" to 20khz. This was gone with this waveguide, maybe the finer transition to the CD responsible for this.
Hope to do some serious measurements later this week!
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I don't want t to hijack the forum, but wanted to share this image, been sanding for quite some time and a lot of spray paint applied. Coming out really neat and I'm really curious how the mold will come out!
If the molding goes well Patrick, I can send a pair your way if you would like that.
If the molding goes well Patrick, I can send a pair your way if you would like that.
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16.2cm x 23.4cm x 10.9cm, I knew it was there, just couldn't find it immediately.
I was simply stunned by the 4367 this year at Munich, there was some mmmm mist where the two drivers overlap(that's how it felt to me and a friend) but boy did it compensate with effortless immediate sound with such soul that I now hate my 25 years of speakerbuidling, it was all in the wrong direction...
I was simply stunned by the 4367 this year at Munich, there was some mmmm mist where the two drivers overlap(that's how it felt to me and a friend) but boy did it compensate with effortless immediate sound with such soul that I now hate my 25 years of speakerbuidling, it was all in the wrong direction...
Off-Topic but ....
PB,
Have you considered alternate technologies such as:
Next-gen optical disc has 10TB capacity and six-century lifespan | Kurzweil
Regards,
WHG
PB,
Have you considered alternate technologies such as:
Next-gen optical disc has 10TB capacity and six-century lifespan | Kurzweil
Regards,
WHG
I loved the 4367 too. It's fantastic.
One thing that I did, in my own speaker building journey, was to purchase some prosound two-ways. In 2002 I bought a pair of JBL two-ways, the kind that you use for a nightclub or a wedding.
Speakers like THAT, they have a lot in common with the M2, the 4367, the Summa, etc.
By living with that speaker for about two years, it helped me figure out whether I liked that type of sound.
When I decided that I DID, I flew to Colorado to audition the Gedlee Summa. Took me two years to build up the courage to actually purchase the thing!
It would be interesting if the people on the forum could come up with good list of prosound two-ways that offer some of that goodness.
For instance, I've heard the QSC two-ways and they're REALLY good. For the price, it's quite astonishing. IIRC, their 15" two-way uses a Celestion woofer and a Celestion compression driver on a very well designed waveguide. True, it's a pro speaker, but it shares a lot in common with something like the M2.
It's one of those things where the "cheap" speaker is $1000 a pair and may very well offer 95% of the M2's performance. (Rampant speculation on my part, go buy a pair and tell me.)
My experience has been that you pay a LOT for that last 5%.
Cosmetics plays a huge role here, obviously; if the looks of the pro speaker are terrible, it might be worthwhile to remove the components and put them in a nicer cabinet. I know that companies like Danley offer options like that, basically versions of their speakers that are more attractive than the prosound versions.
As far as the "line array" vs "high efficiency two way" debate, I can't really comment because I've only lived with a high efficiency two way. I have a truncated CBT on my desk and I like it a lot, but it's really hard to compare the two, it's like asking whether I like a truck or a car better. The answer is very much depends on your personal preferences, both options have benefits.
QSC
Patrick,
I assume you are referring to the QSC E15? Looks like this is recently discontinued and replaced by the E115. Maybe just a minor change-no info on QSC website.
Review if the JBL 4372 are awesome, but price is "awesome" as well. Makes the Summa's seem like an absolute bargain.
Too bad it's impossible to assemble the E15/E115, JBL 4372, Summa's and DIYSG Fusion 15's for an A/B test.
Patrick,
I assume you are referring to the QSC E15? Looks like this is recently discontinued and replaced by the E115. Maybe just a minor change-no info on QSC website.
Review if the JBL 4372 are awesome, but price is "awesome" as well. Makes the Summa's seem like an absolute bargain.
Too bad it's impossible to assemble the E15/E115, JBL 4372, Summa's and DIYSG Fusion 15's for an A/B test.
There lies the problem - we use the same words to describe how a speaker sounds it yet the 4367 to me sounds quite different than most speakers, we rarely bring "pro"speakers at home as they are not "musical" enough. Yes, the 4367 is tailored a bit to please folks who are used to mildly coloured sound but personally I was taught a lesson... Glad it happened before I bought the YG acoustics WHATEVER speaker...
For years I've been saying that the JBL 2408H-1 with the Econowave waveguide is basically unbeatable at the price.
Looks like the JBL 4367 is very similar. Note the very wide beamwidth. But also note that the $150 2408H-1 is superior above 10khz!
Measurements seem to indicate that it isn't just me and Siegfried Linkwitz who are souring on the Linkwitz Riley crossover, JBL is embracing first order crossovers also.