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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

JBL M2 for The Poors
JBL M2 for The Poors
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Old 9th June 2018, 04:22 PM   #521
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Yes, great video, thx Patrick

One of Dave's comments rang out for me.....
that the difference between a really good impulse response, and a slightly bad impulse, is a big difference;
but that the difference between a slightly bad and a really bad impulse, is not so different.

I keep finding the same thing, as I take a zillion measurements and listen.
Glad to hear someone talking similar.... makes me feel I'm not just wishfully trying to tie extraordinary measurements to what i hear.,,,

It sometimes seems like balancing on a pin is where a speaker starts to sing...
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Old 9th June 2018, 07:23 PM   #522
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Originally Posted by Brinkman View Post
Great video.
Interesting to see some contentious moments between Don Keele and David Gunness. David certainly sees DSP as being a given if a speaker is to be “great” (vs merely good), whereas Don comes across as a bit more resolute that pattern control is sufficient enough.

Interesting too, David’s comment that he’s been in more room with line arrays that would have been better served with a point source than he has been In rooms with point sources that would be better served with line arrays.
Yes, David basically spelled it out: line arrays rule the market because they're a way to sell a lot of gear.

I experience something very similar in my job (software.) For instance, I was working with a client, and his requirements were that he wanted to build a very large storage array. It needed to be big and cheap and speed wasn't important.

We were right on the verge of ordering the gear, when my client suddenly did a 180 and wanted to go with SSDs instead of spinning disks. His project didn't require speed, so it was literally pointless to use SSDs. I got the impression that he basically had money burning a hole in his pocket, and he wanted to have "the best"... Even if he didn't need it. (If anyone's curious what the app was, it was basically an app where consumers save receipts. So the data just sits there on disk for something like five years. Nobody is going back to access it on a regular basis, so it's an ideal app for relatively slow storage.)

Something similar likely happens in pro audio; the buyers have been convinced that line arrays are The Best, so they buy them even when they don't need them.

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 9th June 2018 at 07:25 PM.
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Old 9th June 2018, 10:08 PM   #523
turnitdown is offline turnitdown  United States
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Basically there's a couple of waveguides that I've measured that are spectacular:

1) the PT waveguide championed by Zilch. Parts Express sells a clone

2) QSC's waveguide, which is no longer for sale.

#1 performs a little bit better at very high frequency. If you look at the polar response from 10-20khz, it's about as good as it gets. That's the real distinction of the PT waveguide + JBL ring radiator: it's one of the very few combos that doesn't start beaming above 10khz.

But #2 plays lower.

I've noticed a trend in waveguides, that it seems like the bigger the waveguide is, the poorer it performs. I'd always thought that the Danley SH-50 treble was a little rough because of the midrange taps, but I'm starting to think that the real problem is that the waveguide is so big. Bill Waslo's Small Syns, with a smaller waveguide, sounds better above 2khz than the SH-50. But the SH-50 is the imaging champ.

It's tricky to decide which design is best. Do you prefer imaging or smoothness?
Thank you. There are a lot of opinions, but then there are studies. It seems, within the context of what I tend to build, that the best wave guides (in the sense that they all guide waves), are the JBL, PYLE, QSC clone and Wayne's H290 type.

I have built complete projects with the Pyle, JBL, H290 from WP. They have all sounded great when building proven designs faithfully. The QSC is waiting in the wings.

Since this is an M2 thread, I would love to find out just what the magic sauce is.

Am I correct in assuming that DSP is where it's at and is indeed the sauce?
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Old 12th June 2018, 10:40 AM   #524
fotsinijts is offline fotsinijts
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
For me, the best sound at CES this year was the JBL 4367. For some reason, there are a bunch of BMS 4552s on eBay right now, so I thought I'd throw together a "4367-ish" waveguide for the 4552.<snip>
I just started a print, very rough but I'm curious about how it measures and sounds.

Will print one and make a mold from it to cast a concrete version. Through my dad I got my hands on some stuff you mix with concrete to make it way more rigid, stiff and strong, really curious how it will sound!
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Old 12th June 2018, 04:40 PM   #525
Quard is offline Quard  United States
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sorry for being ignorant, but US Speaker has the Eminence H290 (11.7" x 6.6" x 6.0" Depth), Parts-Express has the H290B _________(11.4" x 6.5" x 5.9" Depth), both ABS, 2/3 hole, 29.99, any appreciable differences in sound that I should expect (if I wasn't so ignorant)? (maybe name changed for manufacturer process revision/bookkeeping reasons) although from what I read here (diyaudio.com) in general, minor changes at throat could be significant (HOMs, timbre, other not-always-measurable criteria)

Don't waste your time, but any input appreciated.
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Old 12th June 2018, 11:59 PM   #526
turnitdown is offline turnitdown  United States
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I envy the folks that can print their own - but then, I wouldn't go to work. Haha

I have the Parts Express H290B on the way. I HOPE they're same as the great performers I have in my 4Pi. They will be going in some nice L80t cabinets I found with no components in them. Great condition otherwise though. The wave guides will be mated with the B&C 250 sitting over LE10As. In that box it should be excellent BUT- I now have test gear and need to finish my current project.

I'm done buying any more components until I catch up (he told himself)
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:10 PM   #527
fotsinijts is offline fotsinijts
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Just finished one waveguide after 32 hours of printing...

Bolted on a BMS4550 and crossed it over at 800hz to a Faital Pro 15PR400 on a 60x60 cm flat baffle and did a quick measurement just to check if I got it kind of flat.

Coming from a 2 way synergy (300/20khz) with the same bass speaker, the first thing I didn't like was the bass speaker covering the lower midrange, but apart from that theres a lot to it that I like.

Somehow in my synergy's the mid can be a bit of transcending over the fine details, although it measures "flat" to 20khz. This was gone with this waveguide, maybe the finer transition to the CD responsible for this.

Hope to do some serious measurements later this week!
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Old 13th June 2018, 08:23 PM   #528
turnitdown is offline turnitdown  United States
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Nice. I'll be following this.
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Old 20th June 2018, 11:45 AM   #529
fotsinijts is offline fotsinijts
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I don't want t to hijack the forum, but wanted to share this image, been sanding for quite some time and a lot of spray paint applied. Coming out really neat and I'm really curious how the mold will come out!

If the molding goes well Patrick, I can send a pair your way if you would like that.
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Old 20th June 2018, 04:04 PM   #530
Forane12 is offline Forane12  Bulgaria
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How wide is that monster?
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