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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 23rd February 2019, 12:06 PM   #281
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
I believe the primary advantage of a Synergy Horn over a Lambda Unity Horn is that the Synergy xover includes some little-discussed features that aren't in the Unity horn. (It's in the patent, hint hint.) Also, if I'm correct about the Lambda Unity Horn, then there's real potential to turn it into a world-beater by revising the crossover while using the same drivers that it came with. The Unity horn concept came a long way between the premier of the Lambda Unity horn in Y2K and nowadays.
To anyone here that wants to know more about the SH-50 passive crossover, just ask. I'll do my best to answer your questions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
I think the treble of the Waslo designs is superior to the Danley designs, but the Danley's image a little bit better. I think the reason the treble on the Danleys is a little rough is because the midrange taps are significantly larger than the Waslo designs, and I think that's impacting the treble. Danley doesn't really have a choice here; he's selling a high-output design and if the midrange taps were smaller it would limit the output.
I believe that when you look at the spectrogram of the BMS 1" driver, that will begin to answer your questions. When you look at the level of chattering present above 10 kHz and the overall impulse decays above 4 kHz, that will give you a strong clue (the SH-50 crosses at ~1350 Hz to the midrange drivers):

Monster Massive-sh-50-axis-1m-meas-elevated-1-3m-floor-spectrogram-jpg


Here's a spectrogram of a K-402 two-way Jubilee 1 m on-axis (in-room) with TAD TD-4002 driver for comparison. Note the smoother and much more uniform decay vs. frequency, as well as the only artifact of the impulse event--mouth bounce of the K-402 itself at 0.7-1.2 ms:


Monster Massive-402-jubilee-tad-td-4002-1-axis-jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Possibly the weirdest thing about the SH50 is that it's really difficult to perceive where the soundstage begins and ends. I've never heard a speaker like that. I've told this story a million times, but when our twelve year old daughter was sitting THREE FEET away from a Danley SH50, she asked "is it on?"

Like, how crazy is that? She's sitting mere inches from a giant loudspeaker cranking out something like 100dB in SPL, and she can't tell if it's on or not.

Danley has related similar stories, about how you can stick your entire head in an SH50 and it's difficult to perceive where the sound is coming from. Crazy stuff.

I think this effect is caused by two things. First, the crossover. Second, the midrange taps in the Danley products are *much* further down the horn than in the Cosyne. In the Cosyne, it's two inches, in the SH50, it's 3.5". In the Small Syns, it appears to be about 1.75"

So you have this situation where the wavefront that's produced is in-phase, but the *sources* of that sound are radiating from three points in space separated by almost a FOOT in depth.
If you feel the SH-50 disappears into the room, then you should hear a pair of Jubilees (well set-up). The effect that you mention is heightened even further than the SH-50 in my experience. My border collies sleep on their dog beds in front of the Jubs and K-402-MEH. The sound is still "diffuse" even though you put your head into the mouth of the K-402-MEH.

Chris
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Old 27th February 2019, 07:43 AM   #282
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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I'd love to hear those. I've heard so much abut Jubilees, but I've never seen one.
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Old 27th February 2019, 07:45 AM   #283
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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I'm going to do a repost from another thread of mine. Basically I'd been trying to build a Unity horn with a super-narrow baffle for the past few months. Then I bought the Bill Waslo Cosynes. Now that I've done that, I am really liking the 'cornerhorn' thing.

But I want to reduce the foot print, and my new horn is very similar to the last project. So I thought I'd repost this for context:


Ribbon Unity Horn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Click the image to open in full size.
Here's the horizonal polars of the new deisgn

Click the image to open in full size.
Here's the horizontal polars of the old design

Click the image to open in full size.
For comparison's sake, here's the horizontal polars of a Pyle PH612, which is a clone of a JBL PT waveguide.

These polar measurements tell me that the JBL PT waveguide has the best polars. It's really a wonderful design. But my new waveguide 'loads' the tweeter to a lower frequency, by virtue of it's diffraction slot. My new waveguide suffers from some broadening and narrowing of the beamwidth across it's range, due to geometry. But there's good news:

1) my waveguide is a Unity horn, and it will easily play down to 500Hz once I add the midranges. Try doing THAT with a JBL PT waveguide.

2) My waveguide doesn't suffer from peaks or dips. This is really impotant; thought I'd love it if my waveguide had the epic polar response of a JBL PT waveguide, I'm happy with the fact that there are no obnoxious peaks or dips in the passband, on axis OR off. I'd say it's well behaved, particularly considering it measures less than three liters in volume (one tenth of a cubic foot.)
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Old 27th February 2019, 07:56 AM   #284
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the new waveguide

Click the image to open in full size.
It's largely my attempt to copy the geometry of the JBL progressive transition waveguide, but "unitize" it

Click the image to open in full size.
Here's a measurement of the Pyle PH612, which is a clone of the JBL PT waveguide

Click the image to open in full size.
Here's a measurement of my new waveguide. This is admittedly rough; it's nowhere near as nice as the JBL PT waveguide. But in my defense, the waveguide is completely unbaffled, the mids aren't installed, and I made no effort to cover up the midrange taps. I think that once I do that, it will be smoother. And my measurement includes no equalization; the PH612 measurement pictured above DOES include EQ.
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Old 1st March 2019, 08:09 PM   #285
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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I wasn't thrilled with the response in post 284, so I thought I'd see if I could improve it. I couldn't figure out if the 'lumpiness' in the response is from the compression driver, from the waveguide, from the fact that it's unbaffled, or all of the above.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the response of a JBL GTO 19T on the Unity Waveguide that I made last month. Using a dome instead of a compression driver DID improve the polars, particularly off-axis.

Click the image to open in full size.
So I took the same waveguide, and I added a baffle. I was hoping that would smooth things out. Nope, actually made it a little worse. The baffle DOES increase output below 4khz, because the tweeter is now radiating into half-space instead of the sound wrapping around the unbaffled waveguide.

But still, the performance isn't great.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
To see if the problem is the waveguide, I put the JBL GTO19T on a QSC OS waveguide. Looks like I may have found the problem lol. The QSC just blows my waveguide out of the water. Really great performance here. In the waveguide photo above, the QSC is on the bottom left. I stole the pic from augerpro.

Click the image to open in full size.
Here's a comparison of MY waveguide versus the QSC waveguide. The QSC isn't just smoother, it's louder. On the downside, the beamwidth of the QSC is narrower, it's almost exactly 90 degrees.

Click the image to open in full size.
One 'gripe' that I had with the JBL tweeter is that the output drops like a rock at 14khz. Here's a comparison of the SB Acoustics 19T vs the JBL 19T. You can see that the SB acoustics has a lower 'Q' due to a larger back chamber. The SB rolls off much more gradually.

All in all, I'd say the SB wins. It's too bad that the JBL doesn't work better, because it fits *perfect* on waveguides and horns, it looks like it was made to be horn loaded.

Click the image to open in full size.
Here's the response of the SB Acoustics 19T on the QSC OS waveguide. This is just bonkers performance IMHO. This might be the best measuring waveguide I've ever seen. It's crazy how uniform the curves are, on AND off axis. And this waveguide is symmetrical, so it should sound great everywhere in the room.

Another 'interesting' thing is that it just sounded 'cleaner' than the BMS when I was doing my sweeps. I know that it's challenging to measure higher order modes, but I definitely wonder if there's some in the BMS. Particularly since the BMS response is lumpier, and there's a 90 degree bend in the compression driver. Makes me wonder if the 'lumps' in the response are caused by reflections back down the throat.

All in all, spectacular performance from the QSC / SB combo. Total cost is under $40 per side!
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