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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 20th February 2019, 11:26 PM   #271
Pallas is offline Pallas  Pakistan
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
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The interesting thing about the Cosynes is that there doesn't seem to be a limit for how apart you can place them. With most speakers, when I move them apart, a 'hole' appears in the soundstage. But with the Cosynes, not so much. So I have them as far apart as they'll go.


I noticed the same thing with my old Tannoy 12DMTIIís. They didnít image wider than the speaker placement, but they could be on the sidewalks (appropriately toed) without causing a hole in the center of the stage.
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Old 21st February 2019, 01:32 AM   #272
bwaslo is offline bwaslo  United States
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I've noticed that the 90degree synergies (CoSyne, SmallSyn, 3DP) all did that center image thing. What always amazes me is that I can sit there looking at each speaker and can't make myself perceive that the sound comes from the speaker itself. Unlike other speakers I've had, even the tall BG ribbons with their impressive imaging I could switch to hearing the sound as being from the sources without too much effort. Narrower horns (though they weren't Synergy) didn't seem to do it either, nor did the 90 degree Econowaves I played with. The common elements seem to be coaxials and directivity (and me being the listener, of course). Maybe those Tannoys fall in the same category.

Not sure if the wide directivity is involved, but I've tended toward wider horns because they seem less likely to sound like horns to me. I still have cringing memories of the KHorns I used to have (SpeakerLab clones of the Klipsch, not original) and their narrow midrange horns, those I'm pretty sure I could have been blindfolded and able to aim a laser pointer at each driver!
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Old 21st February 2019, 05:46 AM   #273
BP1Fanatic is offline BP1Fanatic  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
Click the image to open in full size.

The interesting thing about the Cosynes is that there doesn't seem to be a limit for how apart you can place them. With most speakers, when I move them apart, a 'hole' appears in the soundstage. But with the Cosynes, not so much. So I have them as far apart as they'll go.
Is your room specifically setup for music videos? I didn't notice a center channel for movies. Have you thought about using a 3rd Cosynes for center channel duty?
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Old 21st February 2019, 09:18 AM   #274
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post
I've noticed that the 90degree synergies (CoSyne, SmallSyn, 3DP) all did that center image thing. What always amazes me is that I can sit there looking at each speaker and can't make myself perceive that the sound comes from the speaker itself...

...The common elements seem to be coaxials and directivity (and me being the listener, of course)...

Not sure if the wide directivity is involved, but I've tended toward wider horns because they seem less likely to sound like horns to me...
K-402 do this imaging across the middle as their trademark sound, including the K-402-MEH configuration, and the two-way Jubilee configuration crossed at about 400-550 Hz (based on order of the filters used with slightly higher xo frequencies used for lower order filters). The entire front wall becomes the apparent source of sound.

I find that the only limitation is speech intelligibility and locking in the center image if you're listening off-axis using stereo only. A three-across (L, C, R) configuration when dialed in properly is seamless and doesn't care where you sit or stand anywhere in the room, like at good commercial cinemas...

Chris
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Old 22nd February 2019, 03:02 PM   #275
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Is your room specifically setup for music videos? I didn't notice a center channel for movies. Have you thought about using a 3rd Cosynes for center channel duty?
Chris' description is spot-on : it's like the entire wall is the source of sound.

Sometimes I'll close my eyes and I can pinpoint sounds coming from points in between the center and the speakers. I haven't heard many speakers that can do that. Sure, lots of speakers can do a 'phantom center', but they cosynes are ridiculously pinpoint.

I can see why William Cowan just put them IN his walls, because that probably takes the illusion a little further. (Because you don't SEE the speakers.)
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Old 22nd February 2019, 04:07 PM   #276
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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My 2 cents on the illusion of imaging...

Simply said, I believe it comes from good time domain response.

The closer acoustic centers are located, and the more precise the time and phase alignment, the greater the pinpoint illusion, and sense of reality, IME.

Similar to Patrick, I find two really good speakers running mono can make a super solid center image, with very little presence to be heard of their own.
And this image stays solid between the speakers as I move from side to side; the image just moves side to side too, based on relative distances to speakers.

This mono test is the best test I've found for imaging, and what to expect with stereo. How do others gauge imaging, apart from stereo listening?


I think when acoustic centers are not close, no matter how precise the time and phase alignment, we get small audible location clues from each speaker that muck up the illusion, anytime even slightly off center axis between speakers.
I rationalize that it's comb filtering from a speaker on one side that that can't be matched identically by the speaker on the other side other. (picturing mono again, with listener off center).

I think this is why synergies/cosynes image so well..with their acoustic center co-location...less chance for combing..
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Old 22nd February 2019, 05:32 PM   #277
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
My 2 cents on the illusion of imaging...

Simply said, I believe it comes from good time domain response.

The closer acoustic centers are located, and the more precise the time and phase alignment, the greater the pinpoint illusion, and sense of reality, IME.
I started building Unity horns about fourteen years ago, and I heard my first "real" one about ten years ago. About four years back I rented a Danley SH50. Shortly thereafter, I met Bill Waslo in Portland, and I've heard a few of his speakers.

I think the Danley SH50 sounds better than the Lambda Unity Horn. The difference isn't huge, but it's noticeable.

I think Bill's designs are neck-and-neck with the Danley designs. I believe the primary advantage of a Synergy Horn over a Lambda Unity Horn is that the Synergy xover includes some little-discussed features that aren't in the Unity horn. (It's in the patent, hint hint.) Also, if I'm correct about the Lambda Unity Horn, then there's real potential to turn it into a world-beater by revising the crossover while using the same drivers that it came with. The Unity horn concept came a long way between the premier of the Lambda Unity horn in Y2K and nowadays.

I think the treble of the Waslo designs is superior to the Danley designs, but the Danley's image a little bit better. I think the reason the treble on the Danleys is a little rough is because the midrange taps are significantly larger than the Waslo designs, and I think that's impacting the treble. Danley doesn't really have a choice here; he's selling a high-output design and if the midrange taps were smaller it would limit the output.

BUT -

I think it may be possible to take the Waslo designs a little bit further.

Here's what I would do:

Possibly the weirdest thing about the SH50 is that it's really difficult to perceive where the soundstage begins and ends. I've never heard a speaker like that. I've told this story a million times, but when our twelve year old daughter was sitting THREE FEET away from a Danley SH50, she asked "is it on?"

Like, how crazy is that? She's sitting mere inches from a giant loudspeaker cranking out something like 100dB in SPL, and she can't tell if it's on or not.

Danley has related similar stories, about how you can stick your entire head in an SH50 and it's difficult to perceive where the sound is coming from. Crazy stuff.

Click the image to open in full size.

I think this effect is caused by two things. First, the crossover. Second, the midrange taps in the Danley products are *much* further down the horn than in the Cosyne. In the Cosyne, it's two inches, in the SH50, it's 3.5". In the Small Syns, it appears to be about 1.75"

So you have this situation where the wavefront that's produced is in-phase, but the *sources* of that sound are radiating from three points in space separated by almost a FOOT in depth.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 05:47 PM   #278
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
...it's like the entire wall is the source of sound...I can pinpoint sounds coming from points in between the center and the speakers. I haven't heard many speakers that can do that. Sure, lots of speakers can do a 'phantom center', but they cosynes are ridiculously pinpoint.
When you place the loudspeakers in the room corners, you use the front-of-room boundaries as the completion of the loudspeaker aperture (horn), including and most importantly the midbass and lower midrange (which is usually ignored by most and allowed to bounce off of everything uncontrollably. So you see a lot of hybrid loudspeaker designs, i.e., horn loaded HF driver(s) over a DR woofer set out away from the room's walls. This is the source of the differences in imaging.

This is a typical situation within the engineering profession: many people want to set the "system boundaries" too small, not encompassing the true system and the full range of its operation. When you do this, you start to see individuals having trouble identifying the true source of issues. In this case, the system boundaries encompass the room boundaries, loudspeakers, listeners, and in-room furnishings. Since the Cosynes are presently placed in room corners, their midbass and lower midrange polars follow the room corner boundaries in terms of directivity (controlled all the up and down the audible spectrum).

Also, when you start to look at 1/2 wavelength cancellations in-room, you'll see that the best place (for imaging, etc.) is the room corners--unlike almost all of the sage advice given on audio websites that tell owners to place the loudspeakers out into the room-away from the boundaries. Then you deal separately with the extreme nearfield midrange reflections using a small amount of absorption on the adjacent walls next to the midrange horn mouths.

This is the reason why I put together the first corner horn imaging FAQ (also here) a number of years ago to present another viewpoint from the standpoint of the increased system boundaries that include the room itself.

Chris
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Old 22nd February 2019, 08:35 PM   #279
Cask05 is offline Cask05  United States
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After extensive testing, listening and reflecting on the Danley SH-50 performance in-room, my view is that the loudspeaker has been designed for low group delay/flat phase in order to facilitate lobeless stacking of boxes to form very high SPL capability arrays that cover multiples of 50 degrees (or 60 degrees in the case of the later SH-60). This achieves the audience coverage requirement--that's so important to PA and cinema loudspeaker applications.

The SH-50's point source capability adds to their imaging performance (and help to achieve the flat phase/GD requirement), but it turns out that any well-behaving horn-loaded loudspeakers placed in the corners will image in like fashion, as John is finding with the hybrid Cosyne design (single aperture horn on top of a DR ported woofer box). Full-range point source horns with minimal vertical separation and nearly constant polar coverage will perform even better.

Many seem to think that no acoustic treatments are required when placing loudspeaker in room corners--as well as re-EQing the bass response flat again. These notions are not true in my experience.

Chris
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Old 22nd February 2019, 09:14 PM   #280
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
I started building Unity horns about fourteen years ago, and I heard my first "real" one about ten years ago. About four years back I rented a Danley SH50. Shortly thereafter, I met Bill Waslo in Portland, and I've heard a few of his speakers.

I think the Danley SH50 sounds better than the Lambda Unity Horn. The difference isn't huge, but it's noticeable.

I think Bill's designs are neck-and-neck with the Danley designs. I believe the primary advantage of a Synergy Horn over a Lambda Unity Horn is that the Synergy xover includes some little-discussed features that aren't in the Unity horn. (It's in the patent, hint hint.) Also, if I'm correct about the Lambda Unity Horn, then there's real potential to turn it into a world-beater by revising the crossover while using the same drivers that it came with. The Unity horn concept came a long way between the premier of the Lambda Unity horn in Y2K and nowadays.

I think the treble of the Waslo designs is superior to the Danley designs, but the Danley's image a little bit better. I think the reason the treble on the Danleys is a little rough is because the midrange taps are significantly larger than the Waslo designs, and I think that's impacting the treble. Danley doesn't really have a choice here; he's selling a high-output design and if the midrange taps were smaller it would limit the output.

BUT -

I think it may be possible to take the Waslo designs a little bit further.

Here's what I would do:

Possibly the weirdest thing about the SH50 is that it's really difficult to perceive where the soundstage begins and ends. I've never heard a speaker like that. I've told this story a million times, but when our twelve year old daughter was sitting THREE FEET away from a Danley SH50, she asked "is it on?"

Like, how crazy is that? She's sitting mere inches from a giant loudspeaker cranking out something like 100dB in SPL, and she can't tell if it's on or not.

Danley has related similar stories, about how you can stick your entire head in an SH50 and it's difficult to perceive where the sound is coming from. Crazy stuff.



I think this effect is caused by two things. First, the crossover. Second, the midrange taps in the Danley products are *much* further down the horn than in the Cosyne. In the Cosyne, it's two inches, in the SH50, it's 3.5". In the Small Syns, it appears to be about 1.75"

So you have this situation where the wavefront that's produced is in-phase, but the *sources* of that sound are radiating from three points in space separated by almost a FOOT in depth.
Very cool, the amount of experience you have with the synergy/unity designs.
I've heard Ivan talk about the "can't tell how far the speaker is / where it comes from" phenom you mention...I can't believe I still haven't managed to hear any of the true synergies.

But no matter how well they sound, just from specs and components, I also think they could be taken a little further.
As good as the passive crossovers are in the Danley boxes, I really think the crossovers and tuning could be improved.
I have the Danley SC-48 processor and have laughingly suggested to their DSP/amp expert, that they should throw the passives in the trash LoL
It's all just part of taking advantage of the co-located acoustic centers... to the max, with linear phase. I'm happy to see the last batch of Danley presets loaded into the SC-48 use linear phase crossovers for some of the bi-amped synergies.

I wish I had any of your experiences re the ports...
Working with Bill's spreadsheet and Hornresp is going slower than hoped...
..but I'm pretty dense, so nothing below expectation so far
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