Overkill, there is a nice Vifa that has been talked about in other threads (of course you may still need some HF).
But one can watch for closeouts at Parts Express (as I did) and scoff up some nice $1 drivers when the come around and play with them!
I got some Aura like that.
Still the quality does depend on the quality of a single driver, so that is a consideration.
Regardless, the cost of a floor-to-ceiling (assuming you need to go fully to the ceiling, and what your ceiling is, and where you will be sitting compared to the height - but you do need to go to the floor) is not so great compared to the cost of a top quality commercial high-end speaker system. High for DIY, yes.
It's all a matter of balance, and what you like and can live with...
But one can watch for closeouts at Parts Express (as I did) and scoff up some nice $1 drivers when the come around and play with them!
I got some Aura like that.
Still the quality does depend on the quality of a single driver, so that is a consideration.
Regardless, the cost of a floor-to-ceiling (assuming you need to go fully to the ceiling, and what your ceiling is, and where you will be sitting compared to the height - but you do need to go to the floor) is not so great compared to the cost of a top quality commercial high-end speaker system. High for DIY, yes.
It's all a matter of balance, and what you like and can live with...
All about bang for the buck...
Hi Bear,
Given similar budgets I have always been able to achieve a better sound with a good active two or three way system compared to conventional line arrays ie arrays like B&G ribbons with bass mids or CBT or PA based ribbons and bass mids....Until the 4.5 inch Neo BMR....
It has 3 fundamental benefits...
(1) Cost. At RRP of £49.50 to £35.00 per driver its a fraction of the price of anything comparable ie a full range that does not need tweeters up top, bass mids below and the crossover in between.... Plus you only need 1 stereo amp so it reduces amp / cables / rack costs and saves space...
(2) Performance. They sound great as single drivers and just keep getting better as you add more drivers...Starting at 87dB for 1 watt at 1 meter rising to 102 watts for 1 dB at 1meter for the bigger domestic versions they are great with all amplifiers from SET's to AV receivers...
This also makes it incredibly easy to upgrade without ever having to trade in / sell ditch your old gear.
(3) Its 160 degree dispersion in both vertical and horizontal planes make it the perfect on wall / in wall design choice ie it fills the whole room and totally avoids baffle step issues, rear wall reflections and has all the benefits of conventional line arrays with none of the drawbacks...
There are lots of other factors such as its small size, shallow depth ,light weight non resonant polymer chassis, open back, reliability and ease of shipping, easy to install with just 4 wood screws, resistance to sudden climate / central heating / air con changes....They tick all my boxes!
If you can find them in the USA they are a great buy.
All the best
Derek.
Hi Bear,
Given similar budgets I have always been able to achieve a better sound with a good active two or three way system compared to conventional line arrays ie arrays like B&G ribbons with bass mids or CBT or PA based ribbons and bass mids....Until the 4.5 inch Neo BMR....
It has 3 fundamental benefits...
(1) Cost. At RRP of £49.50 to £35.00 per driver its a fraction of the price of anything comparable ie a full range that does not need tweeters up top, bass mids below and the crossover in between.... Plus you only need 1 stereo amp so it reduces amp / cables / rack costs and saves space...
(2) Performance. They sound great as single drivers and just keep getting better as you add more drivers...Starting at 87dB for 1 watt at 1 meter rising to 102 watts for 1 dB at 1meter for the bigger domestic versions they are great with all amplifiers from SET's to AV receivers...
This also makes it incredibly easy to upgrade without ever having to trade in / sell ditch your old gear.
(3) Its 160 degree dispersion in both vertical and horizontal planes make it the perfect on wall / in wall design choice ie it fills the whole room and totally avoids baffle step issues, rear wall reflections and has all the benefits of conventional line arrays with none of the drawbacks...
There are lots of other factors such as its small size, shallow depth ,light weight non resonant polymer chassis, open back, reliability and ease of shipping, easy to install with just 4 wood screws, resistance to sudden climate / central heating / air con changes....They tick all my boxes!
If you can find them in the USA they are a great buy.
All the best
Derek.
I've heard the Naim BMR and it really is special
The BMR has some features that make it an excellent high frequency driver. A flat diaphragm is excellent for high frequencies. (Just simple geometry.) Most tweeters are domes because domes are stronger. The foam composite of the BMR shares some of the advantages of the Focal sandwich cone drivers. Basically strength and damping.
The BMR isn't perfect. Its excursion sucks and so does it's efficiency. But arraying the BMR fixes that.
The BMR has some features that make it an excellent high frequency driver. A flat diaphragm is excellent for high frequencies. (Just simple geometry.) Most tweeters are domes because domes are stronger. The foam composite of the BMR shares some of the advantages of the Focal sandwich cone drivers. Basically strength and damping.
The BMR isn't perfect. Its excursion sucks and so does it's efficiency. But arraying the BMR fixes that.
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Hi Patrick,
You have hit the nail on the head....BMR's are not perfect but their problems are easily solved....
I like the Naim BMR's, they took their time to get the flexing node balancing weights on the rear of the cone just right.
I've been developing my own versions of the CSS 4.5 inch Neo BMR for nearly 4 years and last year got the approval from the top guys in Denmark to work directly with the Tymphany driver designers in China. They are very talented have massive resources....That's a great combination.
At the start they didn't think I could improve on the rubber surround or even believe a silk surround version was possible....Now I have two fantastic OEM designs that I am over the moon with.
All the best
Derek.
DIY kits will be available soon
Hi Jeno,
Thanks, glad you like my babies!
At the moment I only have limited stock of the rubber surround drivers that I use in the full range arrays. I am expecting another shipment in November or early December, along with a batch of the silk surround drivers.
All depends on the shipping from China...Tymphany is my OEM partner for driver manufacture so shipping is a bit slow in the busy November / December Christmas rush.
I hope to get everything organised and have DIY kits and a dedicated website available before Christmas
PM me if you need drivers before then.
All the best
Derek.
Derek,
Nice looking speakers! I am thinking of on wall speakers too. That is one of the reasons I don't wanna go for the CBT.
The BMR drivers look interesting. Are they available in Europe? Or maybe your supplier is a trade secret.
Hi Jeno,
Thanks, glad you like my babies!
At the moment I only have limited stock of the rubber surround drivers that I use in the full range arrays. I am expecting another shipment in November or early December, along with a batch of the silk surround drivers.
All depends on the shipping from China...Tymphany is my OEM partner for driver manufacture so shipping is a bit slow in the busy November / December Christmas rush.
I hope to get everything organised and have DIY kits and a dedicated website available before Christmas
PM me if you need drivers before then.
All the best
Derek.
Just a passing thought. How about 10 6x9 drivers per side? That should span floor to ceiling.
Using something like these GRS drivers at Parts Express means less than $80 a side.
I don't know these drivers, but have some other GRS stuff that is pretty good.
Using something like these GRS drivers at Parts Express means less than $80 a side.
I don't know these drivers, but have some other GRS stuff that is pretty good.
Lowest cost floor to ceiling array...
Good idea Pano...At the price you just cant go wrong!
If these were available in the UK I would buy a bunch and test them out in a low cost cabinet...If they sound good build a good cabinet.
Worst case you can give em away as Christmas and birthday presents to fellow DIY'ers if they don't work out.
Cheers
Derek.
Good idea Pano...At the price you just cant go wrong!
If these were available in the UK I would buy a bunch and test them out in a low cost cabinet...If they sound good build a good cabinet.
Worst case you can give em away as Christmas and birthday presents to fellow DIY'ers if they don't work out.
Cheers
Derek.
Floor to ceiling is fine but there are a lot of weighted coefficients arrays that give smooth response on and off axis.
I'm currently working on a log spaced array that has fabulously good polars with constant directivity. Its proprietary work so I can't go into the individual drive curves but here is a polar curve to give you a taste.
9 elements in a progressively expanding array.
Constant directivity for over 6 Octaves.
Absolutely no lobes.
Regards,
David
I'm currently working on a log spaced array that has fabulously good polars with constant directivity. Its proprietary work so I can't go into the individual drive curves but here is a polar curve to give you a taste.
9 elements in a progressively expanding array.
Constant directivity for over 6 Octaves.
Absolutely no lobes.
Regards,
David
Attachments
Dave - constant directivity only in one plane you mean, correct? Unless it is a 2-D array, but with only 9 units it can't be. Still, good for churches and that sort of venue, but that's hardly new for those applications. Keele's array works very well in the vertical, but I care far less about the vertical than the horizontal in a small listening room and his is not controlled horizontally.
Certainly. No different than any of the other line arrays discussed here. Directivity in the horizontal plane is simply that of a single element.
These are a good match to what Toole and others believe, that wide lateral dispersion and narrow vertical are a good fit to our hearing mechanisms. (Not to narrow here, as the array was intentionally designed to match the units inherent dispersion, about 120 degrees up to 4k or so.)
I will probably end up building a pair of these and mounting them flush or near flush in the walls.
David
These are a good match to what Toole and others believe, that wide lateral dispersion and narrow vertical are a good fit to our hearing mechanisms. (Not to narrow here, as the array was intentionally designed to match the units inherent dispersion, about 120 degrees up to 4k or so.)
I will probably end up building a pair of these and mounting them flush or near flush in the walls.
David
1.4 meters from end to end. Everything is scalable but the sim shown is based on a 58mm full range unit (chassis width) and sized to match the appropriate bandwidth of the unit. It holds pattern to below 125 and can then pass to a small sub.
David
Nice results! I see the guys at Bose are putting your knowledge and experience to good use .
I've got a question on another topic:
I have a pair of floor-to-ceiling arrays with thirty 3" drivers per side. I'm using a DSP to EQ them. I've done the measurements indoors, but it remains quite difficult to get meaningful results in the presence of so many reflections. Short gates only get you so far with a semi-infinite array and because of a c-c spacing of about 9 centimeters the near-field response is erratic above about 3 khz.
I'm thinking about taking the arrays outside to do some measurements there. Do you have any tips? I have quite some space at my disposal, allowing a reflection-free gate of approximately 65 ms. I was thinking of placing the microphone near and on the ground at a distance of between 1 and 2 meters and to perform a spatial average with a very high number of measurements, and then to EQ the average flat.
What do you think?
. I've got a question on another topic:
I have a pair of floor-to-ceiling arrays with thirty 3" drivers per side. I'm using a DSP to EQ them. I've done the measurements indoors, but it remains quite difficult to get meaningful results in the presence of so many reflections. Short gates only get you so far with a semi-infinite array and because of a c-c spacing of about 9 centimeters the near-field response is erratic above about 3 khz.
I'm thinking about taking the arrays outside to do some measurements there. Do you have any tips? I have quite some space at my disposal, allowing a reflection-free gate of approximately 65 ms. I was thinking of placing the microphone near and on the ground at a distance of between 1 and 2 meters and to perform a spatial average with a very high number of measurements, and then to EQ the average flat.
What do you think?
Hi Keyser,
I don't see anything wrong with that basic approach. Ground plane will work but of course you will need to tilt the array forward to get the mic axis roughly on center to the array. As the nearfield effects are so strong I would try and measure at a distance equal to your listening distance.
Averaging around a listening window is probably a good idea. Your C to C distance is about what we had with the McIntosh arrays and the HF "swishies" were noticeable at HF, at least with pink noise. They never bothered me on music, though. Some spatial averaging is appropriate.
One difference between ground plane and indoors will be the lack of the floor and ceiling planes. These "mirrors" give an infinite series of reflected virtual arrays, but they won't be there on ground plane. They probably don't make a huge difference but you may see a bass rise when you compare indoor curves to outdoor curves. (At low frequencies array extension will contribute coherent bass energy. At high frequencies, once the array is a certain length additional length doesn't add coherently, hence doesn't add level.
Show us your graphs when you have something!
David
I don't see anything wrong with that basic approach. Ground plane will work but of course you will need to tilt the array forward to get the mic axis roughly on center to the array. As the nearfield effects are so strong I would try and measure at a distance equal to your listening distance.
Averaging around a listening window is probably a good idea. Your C to C distance is about what we had with the McIntosh arrays and the HF "swishies" were noticeable at HF, at least with pink noise. They never bothered me on music, though. Some spatial averaging is appropriate.
One difference between ground plane and indoors will be the lack of the floor and ceiling planes. These "mirrors" give an infinite series of reflected virtual arrays, but they won't be there on ground plane. They probably don't make a huge difference but you may see a bass rise when you compare indoor curves to outdoor curves. (At low frequencies array extension will contribute coherent bass energy. At high frequencies, once the array is a certain length additional length doesn't add coherently, hence doesn't add level.
Show us your graphs when you have something!
David
Of course not everyone believes that. To Toole "imaging" is a non-issue. They never even rate it in their tests. To Floyd it is all about spaciousness. But we have been over this before.
True, but find me someone not engaged in selling high directivity monitors that disagrees with it.
Anyhow, you can always design yourself a log spaced line and mount it horizontally on the wall. It should satisfy all your wants.
David
Line array information is great!
Hi Dave,
I find all your line array information fascinating...Thanks.
Around Christmas I hope to have some very reliable measurements of my on wall line arrays using a 4.5 inch ( 112mm centre to centre spacing) BMR's which are sounding very special so far.
As a point source the driver as 160 degree coverage in both vertical and horizontal planes...In a 1.8m tall or floor to ceiling array they are captivating from all angles.
Cheers
Derek.
Hi Dave,
I find all your line array information fascinating...Thanks.
Around Christmas I hope to have some very reliable measurements of my on wall line arrays using a 4.5 inch ( 112mm centre to centre spacing) BMR's which are sounding very special so far.
As a point source the driver as 160 degree coverage in both vertical and horizontal planes...In a 1.8m tall or floor to ceiling array they are captivating from all angles.
Cheers
Derek.
Good to see you join the conversation. On page 5 of this thread (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/243861-floor-ceiling-array-vs-cbt-5.html#post4039883) I argued that multi-way array is the way to go.
You've probably seen my Synergy horns, and I own some Gedlee Summas, but I also think that your eXpanding array falls into the same realm. Basically you're using a multi-way array to control directivity, whereas a waveguide can also do it.
If you're using nine speakers, I'm guessing it's a five way? I'm picturing five bands:
1) One driver in the center, high passed
2) two drivers flanking the center, mid-passed
3) two drivers flanking the three drivers
4) two drivers flanking the five drivers
5) two drivers flanking the seven drivers
This would look a bit like your Snell design, but with more bands. The passive crossover in your Snell design probably cost about $200 per side. But nowadays you can get five channels of DSP and amplification for about the same price, as long as the wattage isn't high, so it would be an intriguing way to do directivity without breaking the bank.
For instance, a four channel mini dsp and four channels of Class T amplification are $150.
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