I was thinking of building the MBOW1 3-way designed by Dennis Murphy. However, the crossover is VERY complex and really adds to the price. I figured a little over $1000 to build the whole thing. I'm now going to build the MBOW1 and maybe add a sub to that or two smaller subs and use them as bases for the 2-ways. I know that Dennis plays violin and viola. My daughter plays viola and I want speakers that will provide the datail needed for classical and jazz. The sub(s) would be for other types of listening and I could turn them off when not needed.
Am I wrong to add a sub or subs to these speakers?
If there is anything posted in this forum that would get me the detail I need, please let me know. I don't even know how to go about adding subs. I guess I don't need a crossover, or do I? These will not be used on a HT processor so there is no variable XO setting or small/large setting on the amp. Maybe a couple of 10" woofs in a 2cu-ft box with plate amps?
Thanks,
Jeff
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Am I wrong to add a sub or subs to these speakers?
If there is anything posted in this forum that would get me the detail I need, please let me know. I don't even know how to go about adding subs. I guess I don't need a crossover, or do I? These will not be used on a HT processor so there is no variable XO setting or small/large setting on the amp. Maybe a couple of 10" woofs in a 2cu-ft box with plate amps?
Thanks,
Jeff
Password:
From what I know, if you have a speaker pair that can go down to 50Hz -1db, that should preclude adding any subwoofer, expecially since most classical and jazz materials hardly contain frequencies below that. The lowest piano A-note releases 22Hz, but I don't know of any classical piece that has notes anywhere near that, except maybe the "Jaws" theme.
But if you had to add a subwoofer, I suggest you get one with a sealed enclosre. You will need what audiophiles term as a "musical" sub compared to one used in HT that gives more slam.
I am just curious, with a budget of $1T, there are many excellent speakers out there in that price range. Are there any special qualities in the DIY route that would rival those in the market?
But if you had to add a subwoofer, I suggest you get one with a sealed enclosre. You will need what audiophiles term as a "musical" sub compared to one used in HT that gives more slam.
I am just curious, with a budget of $1T, there are many excellent speakers out there in that price range. Are there any special qualities in the DIY route that would rival those in the market?
I love it when I get a quick reply. I'll re-reply with an explanation. I built HT speakers and a large cylinder sub that stands approx 1.8 meters tall. It all turned out so well, that I got the bug to build speakers.
I can build the MBOW 1 for approx. $400 a pair including cabinets and veneer. The reviews of this Dennis Murphy designed system are all excellent. I've read several times that they easily compare to $2000 speakers (I know...blah, blah, blah). I can build a 10" sub for $200 or less. I would only use it or them for bass heavy classic rock. I'm thinking of a sealed 2-3 cu-ft cabinet with an 8 or 10 inch Dayton subwoofer and 100-120wpc plate amp(s).
I'm still new at this. I did design my HT subwoofer, but that was easy for HT. The complexity of crossover design, I leave to the experts and copy them.
Am I crazy?
Jeff
I can build the MBOW 1 for approx. $400 a pair including cabinets and veneer. The reviews of this Dennis Murphy designed system are all excellent. I've read several times that they easily compare to $2000 speakers (I know...blah, blah, blah). I can build a 10" sub for $200 or less. I would only use it or them for bass heavy classic rock. I'm thinking of a sealed 2-3 cu-ft cabinet with an 8 or 10 inch Dayton subwoofer and 100-120wpc plate amp(s).
I'm still new at this. I did design my HT subwoofer, but that was easy for HT. The complexity of crossover design, I leave to the experts and copy them.
Am I crazy?
Jeff
If I understand the question its about the 3 way
MBOW1 vs the 2 way used with a subwoofer.
Hi fi subs are usually used in parralell with the main
speakers, the main speaker running full range.
Requirements are deep bass response (otherwise
it will be pointless) and highly adjustable cut-off
frequency with very low frequency settings available.
Many budget subwooofers and plate amps cannot
be adjusted to a low enough cut-off frequency for
hi-fi use, and the resolution of the control is usually
poor.
Checkout the REL subwoofer site - will help a lot.
Compared to an A/V sub loudness requirements are
quite modest - basically depends on the loudness
capability of the main speakers - for the MBOW1
this will be modest.
So the driver complement of the sub only needs
to be modest, IMO a good 10" will do the job easily.
Sub amplifier wattage requirements are similarly
modest, 50 to 100w usually will do the job.
The point of the above is best quality. The bass is
extended in range but the system will not play louder,
though it will sound much 'bigger'.
The sub should be used on all music program, there
will be no advantage to using it on bass heavy music
only.
If the combination is to play louder then the main
speakers must be high pass filtered and a much
higher crossover frequency used on the sub.
This is not easy at all to do, and usually end results are
poor, which is why the above approach is mainly used.
Generally two subs will be needed - arranging the main
speakers high pass filter is problematical - getting a
good integration between the units is very difficult.
IMO for better bass add a good sub in parrallel -
base the design on info from the REL subwoofer site.
For better bass and more volume capability build the 3 way.
/sreten.
MBOW1 vs the 2 way used with a subwoofer.
Hi fi subs are usually used in parralell with the main
speakers, the main speaker running full range.
Requirements are deep bass response (otherwise
it will be pointless) and highly adjustable cut-off
frequency with very low frequency settings available.
Many budget subwooofers and plate amps cannot
be adjusted to a low enough cut-off frequency for
hi-fi use, and the resolution of the control is usually
poor.
Checkout the REL subwoofer site - will help a lot.
Compared to an A/V sub loudness requirements are
quite modest - basically depends on the loudness
capability of the main speakers - for the MBOW1
this will be modest.
So the driver complement of the sub only needs
to be modest, IMO a good 10" will do the job easily.
Sub amplifier wattage requirements are similarly
modest, 50 to 100w usually will do the job.
The point of the above is best quality. The bass is
extended in range but the system will not play louder,
though it will sound much 'bigger'.
The sub should be used on all music program, there
will be no advantage to using it on bass heavy music
only.
If the combination is to play louder then the main
speakers must be high pass filtered and a much
higher crossover frequency used on the sub.
This is not easy at all to do, and usually end results are
poor, which is why the above approach is mainly used.
Generally two subs will be needed - arranging the main
speakers high pass filter is problematical - getting a
good integration between the units is very difficult.
IMO for better bass add a good sub in parrallel -
base the design on info from the REL subwoofer site.
For better bass and more volume capability build the 3 way.
/sreten.Thanks Lads,
I decided to build the MBOW1 first. I'll then decide if I need more bass after breaking them in and playing them a bit. That's the nice thing about the Dennis Murphy designs...he keeps tweaking and does it in a way that existing owners can follow. If needed, I'll definitely forgo the subwoofer idea and add bass modules and modified XO for a true 3-way speaker.
I ordered all XO components tonight from Parts Express and got my free shipping. I'm building cabinets this weekend.
Jeff
I decided to build the MBOW1 first. I'll then decide if I need more bass after breaking them in and playing them a bit. That's the nice thing about the Dennis Murphy designs...he keeps tweaking and does it in a way that existing owners can follow. If needed, I'll definitely forgo the subwoofer idea and add bass modules and modified XO for a true 3-way speaker.
I ordered all XO components tonight from Parts Express and got my free shipping. I'm building cabinets this weekend.
Jeff
Just add a quick note :
If you decide you want more bass -
Block the ports of the MBWO1 - some bass will disappear.
Determine if lack of low bass not withstanding, they can play
loud enough and / or handle the output of your amplifier.
If they can the added sub - hifi approach will work extremely
well - the extra power handling of the MBW01 3 way will not
be needed.
(Blocking the ports will make integration with a sub easier,
and it will reduce cone excursion below the port frequency)
If they can't then it seems you have to go for the three way.
I've looked at the designs some more and concluded than an
active crossover design may have some cost / performance /
flexibility advantages and definitely shouldn't be discounted.
You would need two bass modules and another stereo amp.
Not easy to add to a normal hi-fi, but if electronics holds
no fears for you it should not be discounted just yet.
/sreten.
If you decide you want more bass -
Block the ports of the MBWO1 - some bass will disappear.
Determine if lack of low bass not withstanding, they can play
loud enough and / or handle the output of your amplifier.
If they can the added sub - hifi approach will work extremely
well - the extra power handling of the MBW01 3 way will not
be needed.
(Blocking the ports will make integration with a sub easier,
and it will reduce cone excursion below the port frequency)
If they can't then it seems you have to go for the three way.
I've looked at the designs some more and concluded than an
active crossover design may have some cost / performance /
flexibility advantages and definitely shouldn't be discounted.
You would need two bass modules and another stereo amp.
Not easy to add to a normal hi-fi, but if electronics holds
no fears for you it should not be discounted just yet.
/sreten.Have you considered the Dayton 8" Single Voice Coil woofer in a transmission line? The Dayton 8" claims response down to 29 Hz, and when used with the new 100-watt subwoofer amplifier, it should be good to go. Try a ten-foot line with a taper of 1.0>0.5 (Driver End>Terminus). Doubled over once it should only be five or six feet long. Definitely manageable size.
One more question about the subs with this system: I'm still considering them because everytime I look at the xo schematic for the 3-way, I get dizzy. That thing is going to be HUGE and over $300. I'm thinking about a sealed 1.6 cu-ft box and Peerless 850146 10" woofers.
My next question is should I go with side firing subs or front? Maybe something like this: http://www.bamberglab.com/single10.htm
My next question is should I go with side firing subs or front? Maybe something like this: http://www.bamberglab.com/single10.htm
Now I'm making some progress. I have designed the enclosure for a 1.6cuFt sealed sub. My dimensions are:
23"H x 8.5" W x 14.5 D. Maybe I should reverse width and depth, because I plan to side-mount the driver. That means it will have 8.5" of cabinet behind it. Does this seem like a problem to anyone? I'll be using the Peerless CSX 850146 10" drivers. One in each cabinet. I'm hoping that I can use two Parts Express plate amps and use them to adjust the xo and phasing. The MBOW1 speakers will sit on top of these.
Jeff
23"H x 8.5" W x 14.5 D. Maybe I should reverse width and depth, because I plan to side-mount the driver. That means it will have 8.5" of cabinet behind it. Does this seem like a problem to anyone? I'll be using the Peerless CSX 850146 10" drivers. One in each cabinet. I'm hoping that I can use two Parts Express plate amps and use them to adjust the xo and phasing. The MBOW1 speakers will sit on top of these.
Jeff
Hi,
your dimensions give an external volume of 1.6 cu-Ft.
With 3/4" MDF internal volume is 1.13 cu ft.
(Narrow designs use more material than dumpy designs.)
The depth behind the woofer won't be a problem.
It will make is easier if the MBOW1 cabinet is redesigned to be sealed.
I'm still confused as to your planned filtering arrangements for
the MBOW1.
sreten.
your dimensions give an external volume of 1.6 cu-Ft.
With 3/4" MDF internal volume is 1.13 cu ft.
(Narrow designs use more material than dumpy designs.)
The depth behind the woofer won't be a problem.
It will make is easier if the MBOW1 cabinet is redesigned to be sealed.
I'm still confused as to your planned filtering arrangements for
the MBOW1.
sreten.Actually, those are my internal dimensions. I used this formula:
http://www.loudspeakers101.com/BoxCalc.htm
These two 10" speakers will be used as subs. I may have ****ed away $350 on the design. I'll find out soon. The MBOW1 3-way would have cost a bit over $1k and I can build this for a tad over $700. I'll use two sub amps with phase and crossover control.
I arrived home tonight from a business trip and all the drivers are here. The Hiquphon tweeters seem to be the closest things to jewels in my system.
jeff
http://www.loudspeakers101.com/BoxCalc.htm
These two 10" speakers will be used as subs. I may have ****ed away $350 on the design. I'll find out soon. The MBOW1 3-way would have cost a bit over $1k and I can build this for a tad over $700. I'll use two sub amps with phase and crossover control.
I arrived home tonight from a business trip and all the drivers are here. The Hiquphon tweeters seem to be the closest things to jewels in my system.
jeff
sreten said:Hi,
your dimensions give an external volume of 1.6 cu-Ft.
With 3/4" MDF internal volume is 1.13 cu ft.
(Narrow designs use more material than dumpy designs.)
The depth behind the woofer won't be a problem.
It will make is easier if the MBOW1 cabinet is redesigned to be sealed.
I'm still confused as to your planned filtering arrangements for
the MBOW1.
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