almost everybody knows Klipsch Heritage speakers (like Klipschorn and Cornwall) with their deep bass response. last year I managed to buy to pair of Cornwall empty cabinet from Pakistan. restored it and bought all parts needed (woofs, mids, tweetsl, XOvers) from Bob Crites. everything is just ok but they lack the lows 
they play so loud at 2-3 watts of power but bass is not satisfactory. as woofer are Eminence CW1526 as lots of Klipschophiles use as direct replacement of K-33 (Klipsch Original one) so there is no accusation on them. Cabinet is just what should be. the only thing I'm fishy about is damping material. I just use fiberglass wool.
ay idea to treat the problem is appreciated
they play so loud at 2-3 watts of power but bass is not satisfactory. as woofer are Eminence CW1526 as lots of Klipschophiles use as direct replacement of K-33 (Klipsch Original one) so there is no accusation on them. Cabinet is just what should be. the only thing I'm fishy about is damping material. I just use fiberglass wool.ay idea to treat the problem is appreciated
These speakers are highly dependent upon room placement for bass.
Also they are not known for very low bass.
If you post the T/S parameters for this driver that would tell a whole lot about what to expect as far as performance.
Btw, I did not find that driver on the Eminence site via a search, perhaps their search engine is not doing the job quite right.
EDIT: here it is from a post on here -
FS is 26.3, Re is 3.40, VAS is 437.2 liters, BL is 11.63 Tm, QM is 9.19, QE is 0.36, QT is 0.35. Sensitivity is 95.3 db. Coil is 1 mH.
Pmax is 150 watts, Xmax is 7.15 mm, MMS is 87.5 grams, Cms is 0.420 mm/N
Also they are not known for very low bass.
If you post the T/S parameters for this driver that would tell a whole lot about what to expect as far as performance.
Btw, I did not find that driver on the Eminence site via a search, perhaps their search engine is not doing the job quite right.
EDIT: here it is from a post on here -
FS is 26.3, Re is 3.40, VAS is 437.2 liters, BL is 11.63 Tm, QM is 9.19, QE is 0.36, QT is 0.35. Sensitivity is 95.3 db. Coil is 1 mH.
Pmax is 150 watts, Xmax is 7.15 mm, MMS is 87.5 grams, Cms is 0.420 mm/N
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So, the VAS of 437 liters = ~ 15 cubic feet.
Or a small refrigerator, maybe a washing machine size.
2 ft on a side = 8 cuft.
3 ft on a side = 27 cuft.
So in a ported enclosure like the Cornwall, you'd have the F3 pushed up in freq above the Fs. If you put the specs into a simulator, download one, you'll likely see the F3 in the box pushed up above 40 Hz. Remember too that the volume of the box is the internal volume minus the volume of the speaker and all the other stuff inside. So it is a bit smaller than you expect.
The other thing is to "exercise" the woofer for a day or so with a low frequency signal, like say a 10-20 Hz sine wave at *moderate* levels, just enough to make the woofer move well within its excursion capabilities. This will flex the suspension enough to bring it into the range of factory specs. This may help the bass response somewhat.
Then too you may wish to re adjust your HF compenent's levels.
I'd suggest playing pink noise through the woofer (after "break-in", per above) and starting with the midrange driver, just turn it up so that the "waterfall sound" from the woofer is just noticeably added to, not more. Then turn on the tweeter and do the same to the combination of the woofer and midrange. Now your relative levels will match the woofer (the HF components need to substantially padded DOWN, since they are way more sensitive, and have more output for the same input signal).
This may sound much much better after these adjustments.
After all that moving the boxes to the corners of the room, or to the wall behind the speakers may well improve the LF extension. In the corners, angle them aiming to be crossing into the prime listening area...
_-_-
Or a small refrigerator, maybe a washing machine size.
2 ft on a side = 8 cuft.
3 ft on a side = 27 cuft.
So in a ported enclosure like the Cornwall, you'd have the F3 pushed up in freq above the Fs. If you put the specs into a simulator, download one, you'll likely see the F3 in the box pushed up above 40 Hz. Remember too that the volume of the box is the internal volume minus the volume of the speaker and all the other stuff inside. So it is a bit smaller than you expect.
The other thing is to "exercise" the woofer for a day or so with a low frequency signal, like say a 10-20 Hz sine wave at *moderate* levels, just enough to make the woofer move well within its excursion capabilities. This will flex the suspension enough to bring it into the range of factory specs. This may help the bass response somewhat.
Then too you may wish to re adjust your HF compenent's levels.
I'd suggest playing pink noise through the woofer (after "break-in", per above) and starting with the midrange driver, just turn it up so that the "waterfall sound" from the woofer is just noticeably added to, not more. Then turn on the tweeter and do the same to the combination of the woofer and midrange. Now your relative levels will match the woofer (the HF components need to substantially padded DOWN, since they are way more sensitive, and have more output for the same input signal).
This may sound much much better after these adjustments.
After all that moving the boxes to the corners of the room, or to the wall behind the speakers may well improve the LF extension. In the corners, angle them aiming to be crossing into the prime listening area...
_-_-
+1 on what bear says.
I have Bob Crites Cornscala's which use the same box dimensions as the Cornwall and likely the same woofer you are using: Cornscala Style C | Critesspeakers.com
It takes a while for the woofer to loosen up and I would follow exactly what bear says.
Attached is the frequency response of my system at the listening position some 9 1/2ft away. I use Audiolense DRC to design digital FIR filters to correct for speaker and room anomalies, which plugs into JRiver's 64-bit Convolver engine.
The speakers are set up off center in my room that I cannot change. But the left speaker is closer to a corner and you can see the left speaker uncorrected (gold curve) produces a -3dB point at 34Hz, whereas the right speaker (green curve) is placed unfortunately just off center of the room where there is no help from the room.
Of course using DRC smooth's it all out (red and blue curves). As bear says, playing with placement and using something like REW to measure, you should get somewhere down to a -3dB point at 34Hz.
Also attached is a interesting report on the Cornwall's. One thing to note is that there is absolutely no damping material in the cab. Same goes for my Cornscala's. Up to you, but I would remove any damping you have in the cab.
Hope that helps and enjoy your new Cornwall's!
Cheers,
Mitch
I have Bob Crites Cornscala's which use the same box dimensions as the Cornwall and likely the same woofer you are using: Cornscala Style C | Critesspeakers.com
It takes a while for the woofer to loosen up and I would follow exactly what bear says.
Attached is the frequency response of my system at the listening position some 9 1/2ft away. I use Audiolense DRC to design digital FIR filters to correct for speaker and room anomalies, which plugs into JRiver's 64-bit Convolver engine.
The speakers are set up off center in my room that I cannot change. But the left speaker is closer to a corner and you can see the left speaker uncorrected (gold curve) produces a -3dB point at 34Hz, whereas the right speaker (green curve) is placed unfortunately just off center of the room where there is no help from the room.
Of course using DRC smooth's it all out (red and blue curves). As bear says, playing with placement and using something like REW to measure, you should get somewhere down to a -3dB point at 34Hz.
Also attached is a interesting report on the Cornwall's. One thing to note is that there is absolutely no damping material in the cab. Same goes for my Cornscala's. Up to you, but I would remove any damping you have in the cab.
Hope that helps and enjoy your new Cornwall's!
Cheers,
Mitch
Attachments
yeah that's right
Uh I appreciate your concern and long and useful entry
actually speakers have less than 200 hours of play, on the other hand, I always listen Classic, Folk and these kinda slow motion music, but you know sometimes a big drum kick is there in the spectrum but nothing come outta woofer!
so I should play them with some 10-20hz test recording? is there any proper record for this application?
thanks again,
thanks dude
yeah CW and CS would go all the way down to 32-34hz and I thing it's more than adequate (at least for me
)I've read that 30-35 page of Cornwall test report and I knew what I was go into before getting the speakers.
do you know a good 10-20hz record to break in the woofs?
thanks,
there's a guy on here - search for the thread - who recently put up freeware that will turn your computer into a signal generator.
otoh, after 200 hours the spider *ought* to be worked in, but maybe not.
maybe a description of the full system and/or pics would help to figure things out?
I'd opt for an unstuffed box, BUT with as much thickness absorption as you can get onto the rear wall only. This will reduce the reflected upper mids and clean up that part of the spectrum and also keep direct midrange reflection from coming out of the port unattenuated. I am not a fan of empty speaker enclosures.
IF you have the box even partially filled with fiberglass or poly batting, you are probably reducing the output of the port substantially.
You can test.
Download the free signal generator software.
Tape a bit of tissue or toilet paper hanging loosely over part of the port - maybe a 2-3" wide bit hanging down - non critical.
Play the sig gen at modest volume, not too very loud, start at maybe 300 Hz. (nominally midband) then slowly sweep down into the bass freqs... you will hear the response in the room.
As you reach down to the frequencies where the port works you will see the tissue start to move. The point at which the tissue moves the most, that is the center tuning frequency of the port. Note what frequency that is. Report back.
At the center freq, the measured or subjective volume should be similar to the subjective volume at say 60-75Hz. If it is substantially lower then either the port is tuned too low for the driver and/or the box is not properly sized for the *actual* T/S parameters of those drivers.
_-_-bear
otoh, after 200 hours the spider *ought* to be worked in, but maybe not.
maybe a description of the full system and/or pics would help to figure things out?
I'd opt for an unstuffed box, BUT with as much thickness absorption as you can get onto the rear wall only. This will reduce the reflected upper mids and clean up that part of the spectrum and also keep direct midrange reflection from coming out of the port unattenuated. I am not a fan of empty speaker enclosures.
IF you have the box even partially filled with fiberglass or poly batting, you are probably reducing the output of the port substantially.
You can test.
Download the free signal generator software.
Tape a bit of tissue or toilet paper hanging loosely over part of the port - maybe a 2-3" wide bit hanging down - non critical.
Play the sig gen at modest volume, not too very loud, start at maybe 300 Hz. (nominally midband) then slowly sweep down into the bass freqs... you will hear the response in the room.
As you reach down to the frequencies where the port works you will see the tissue start to move. The point at which the tissue moves the most, that is the center tuning frequency of the port. Note what frequency that is. Report back.
At the center freq, the measured or subjective volume should be similar to the subjective volume at say 60-75Hz. If it is substantially lower then either the port is tuned too low for the driver and/or the box is not properly sized for the *actual* T/S parameters of those drivers.
_-_-bear
I agree that room placement is a big issue.
As for the other stuff. The Crites replacement woofers have comparable specs to the original K-33 woofers. As far as testing the whether the woofer is in a properly sized and ported box, well I think the engineers at Klipsch knew how to design and build a cabinet.
What exactly is this exercise trying to accomplish?
As for the other stuff. The Crites replacement woofers have comparable specs to the original K-33 woofers. As far as testing the whether the woofer is in a properly sized and ported box, well I think the engineers at Klipsch knew how to design and build a cabinet.
What exactly is this exercise trying to accomplish?
It's an ancient design that predates T/S parameters.
Back then most speaker design was trial and error.
The OP is trying to determine why he has not enough bass.
I suggested that his mid and tweeter horn levels are too high, and that the bass is there but being overwhelmed by the mids and highs.
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