4 Way floor standing speakers and crossovers

[elrosh]

hello
This is my Debut post

I am embarking on a rather ambitious speaker project. My goal is to build a floor standing speaker(Pair), which has a frequency range of
20 Hz to 20 KHz.
I don't have a working knowledge of crossover design. so i have sourced pre-made crossovers. 2 of them in this case
one 3-way crossover for the tweeter, midrange and woofer. And another single 100 Hz Low Pass 4 Ohm Crossover for the sub woofer.
i am hoping to install all the drivers in a single tower (4-Way Pair)
Enclosure Dimensions are: Height= 45", Width=18" and Depth=22"
I want to know if my design is sound or do i need to redesign
and i want to know if the crossovers i have chosen will work with the drivers mentioned below.
If the crossover chosen for this project is not right, can somebody help me design one
I haven't procured the drivers or started work on the enclosure.
Wanted to run things by experienced DIYers beforehand.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

Drivers
1. 12" Champion Series TS-W1208F Sub Woofer [ 20 Hz to 110 Hz]Specifications
Size30 cmMax. Music Power (Nominal)1,000 W (300 W)Frequency Response20 Hz to 110 HzSensitivity (1 W/1 m)95 dbImpedance4 ΩMounting Depth143 mmCut-Out Dimensions278mm
2.Woofer : Polk Audio 10" High performance Woofer [30 Hz. to 8 kHz]

Specifications
Size / Type = 10" stiff treated paper cone woofer
SPL = 91 db @ 1w/1m
Wattage = 200 Watts RMS / 400 Watts Peak
Stiif Thick Treated Paper cone woofer, foam surround
Response = 30 Hz. to 8 kHz.
Weight = Right a 6 pounds ea.
Magnet = 64 oz. unshielded
VC = 2" ( 50 mm)
Ohms = 4 ohms

TS Measurements

f(s) - 37 Hz.
Q(ms) - 4.070
V(as) - 34.71 liters ( 1.226 cf. )
n(0) - 0.32%
M(ms) - 112.60 grams
R(e) - 0.36 Ohms
Q(es) - 0.517
SPL - 91 dB @ 1W/1m
C(ms) - 0.16 mm/N
Z(max) - 3.12 Ohms
Q(ts) - 0.453
L(e) - 0.11 mH
3. Midrange: Polk Audio MW5530 Woofers 5 1/4" - 4 ohms - New - Pair [FR: 45 Hz. to 10 kHz.] 110 Watts

Specifications
5 1/4"
Size / Type = 5.250" Dynamic Balance® polymer cone woofer
SPL = 91 db @ 1w/1m
Wattage = 110 Watts RMS / 220 Watts Peak
Polymer cone woofer, rubber surround
Response = 45 Hz. to 10 kHz.
Weight = Right a 3 pound ea.
Magnet = Un-Shielded 16 oz.
VC = 1" ( 25 mm)
Ohms = 4 ohms

TS Measurements
f(s) - 69 Hz.
Q(ms) - 9.521
V(as) - 7.56 liters ( 0.267 cf. )
n(0) - 0.37%
M(ms) - 10.11 grams
R(e) - 3.69 Ohms
Q(es) - 0.666
SPL - 91 dB @ 1W/1m
C(ms) - 0.51 mm/N
Z(max) - 56.44 Ohms
Q(ts) - 0.622
L(e) - 0.36 mH
BL - 4.96

4. Tweeter: Mavin T-1 High Power Tweeter 90 Watts RMS 4 Ohms 92dB pair [ FR: 1.5 kHz. to 21 K Hz .] 90 Watts
Specifications

Soft Silk Dome
90 Watts RMS Power Rating
4 ohm impedance
A Practical Frequency Range from 1,500 Hz. to 21,000 Hz.
1 inch silk dome ( 50 mm ) and Voice Coil Shielded
Size 4" Dia. for a 2 3/4" eye browed mounting hole, and a 1 3/4" mounting depth. 4 mounting screw holes

CROSSOVERS

1. High Performance Mavin CR38 3 Way 12 dB 4 Ohm Crossover Pair
2. 100 Hz Low Pass 4 Ohm Crossover. for Sub Woofer

Specifications

1.Crossover : 3 Way
High impact thermo plastic enclosure
12 dB slope
Gold Plated terminals
4 ohm impedance
500 Watt RMS power rating
Crossover points are 1300Hz and 4500Hz.
Size L x W x H 125 x 95 x 34 mm
or
4.875" x 3.750" x 1.375"
or
4 7/8" x 3 3/4" x 1 3/8"

2. Low Pass Crossover For Sub Woofer

• Approximately 250 watts RMS • Type: Low pass • Driver impedance: 4 ohm • Crossover frequency: 100 Hz • Roll off: 12 dB.

Thanks

 

[sreten]

Hi,

To be brutally blunt you have no idea what you are doing and your
current plan is very poor. Good that you haven't bought the drivers
or started work yet, not so good that you've already bought stuff.

The stuff you have bought is no good at all for a high quality system.

I've no idea how you've come up with such a monster sized cabinet.

The Madisound Speaker Store

Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower

Is a far better idea.

rgds, sreten.

 

[sreten]

Hi,

To be brutally blunt you have no idea what you are doing and your
current plan is very poor. Good that you haven't bought the drivers
or started work yet, not so good that you've already bought stuff.

The stuff you have bought is no good at all for a high quality system.

I've no idea how you've come up with such monster sized cabinets.

The Madisound Speaker Store

Zaph|Audio - SB12.3 3-Way Tower

Is a far better idea.

rgds, sreten.

 

[sreten]

Hi,

You could make the SB12.3 somewhat bigger, by increasing depth
and venting it low, around 20Hz, if you are after genuine 20Hz bass.

rgds, sreten.

 

[Jonathan Bright]

Hi elrosh,
100% for courage my friend! I have to admire your ambitious approach.
I think it is a fairly complex project if it is your first attempt in this area.
For us to be constructive it might help we knew a bit more about your goals in going for what is a pretty large system.
But moving along in a positive vein can I suggest the following.
Speakers and cross overs are a confusing area if you are new to the area. Given what you have already bought the following approach may be useful.
Keep the MARVIN cross overs. They will almost certainly be designed to work with three drivers from the MAVIN range. You could then buy the appropriate units and end up with a smaller 3-way system. It will probably come together nicely and will provide a wealth of experience in both theory and construction techniques.
Later you have the options of putting some subs along with them or selling them and going back to your original "monster" system etc.

The difficult area in buying xovers and drivers from different sources is one of compatability. To get the relative sensitivities and bandwidths matching is not easy.
Mind you the great joy of DIY is to be found in some tangential areas such as the satisfaction of creating something, doing it for far less than the ready built retail product etc ..........
Don't be too discouraged. Read a bit more and tell us more of your plans, situation and goals......what type of music.....is it for a domestic enviroment or a system for a garage band!
Hang in there.
Cheers, Jonathan

 

[sreten]

Keep the MARVIN cross overs. They will almost certainly be
designed to work with three drivers from the MAVIN range.
Cheers, Jonathan

Hi,

No they don't, they are terrible, and your advising somebody
who has made a mistake to carry on chucking money at a
very bad project, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Following your advice he'll end up with a typical half-baked
Disco/PA type system, far removed from good hifi speakers.

YMMV - but live and learn if you take the simplistic approach.

rgds, sreten.

 

[elrosh]

hi Sreten & Jonathan

Thanks for the quick replies.
I am a complete noob when it comes to speaker design.
I haven't bought any speakers as of yet. just wanted to run my ideas by you guys.
After your suggestions, i am seriously thinking about adopting a manageable design.
Perhaps a little more research.
Thanks again
Elrosh

 

[elrosh]

Hi Sreten & Jonathan
Thanks for the quick replies

I haven't bought any speakers or crossover as of yet. Just wanted to run my ideas by you guys to see if my plans hold any merit. As i understand there is a lot i have have to learn as i am a complete noob to speaker design. will research more and see where it takes me.

Thanks again.
Elrosh

 

[sreten]

Hi, some links if you want to research, rgds, sreten.

http://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy (see if nothing else, the excellent FAQs)
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/sh...d.php?t=219617
Zaph|Audio
Zaph|Audio - ZA5 Speaker Designs with ZA14W08 woofer and Vifa DQ25SC16-04 tweeter
FRD Consortium tools guide
http://web.archive.org/web/200909021...esigningXO.htm
RJB Audio Projects
http://web.archive.org/web/200909022...ve99/Spkrbldg/
Speaker Design Works
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=28655
A Speaker project
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Lou...r_Projects.htm
Humble Homemade Hifi
Quarter Wavelength Loudspeaker Design
Pi Speakers - unmatched quality and state-of-the-art performance
The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs
6.283 Audio Pages
Linkwitz Lab - Loudspeaker Design
Music and Design

Great free SPICE Emulator : http://focus.ti.com/docs/toolsw/fold...t/tina-ti.html

 

[Moondog55]

I applaud you for wanting to start at the top, everybody here will tell you that 3-ways are hard and 4-ways harder and they are right. When you consider the cost of really good subwoofers to covers that last low octave ( Megabucks for an amp and driver and the cabinet as big bass needs big boxes ; unless you use a Linkwitz Transform and then you need kilowatts of power) the easiest way to get reasonable sound quality is a powered subwoofer and a good 2-Way speaker that is designed to be used with a separate bass unit and that often means a sealed box for the midbass driver as the natural second order roll-off of a sealed box is easier to integrate with a subwoofer.
Now you may not understand all of my post which means you need to do a little reading and research. But a reasonable plan needs a lot of information from you; your budget what sort of music you listen to mainly and the size of your listening space and where in the room the finished speakers will be placed; speakers sound "better" if brought out into a room but then need to take something called 'Baffle Step' into consideration when designing the XO or the use of additional drivers for the midbass. There is no point in building something with an 18 inch bass driver in a 300 litre cabinet if your room is only 3*4 meters
The other thing to take mind of is to source drivers that have reasonably smooth and even responses and that will work well together, there are many speakers that sound excellent with minimal work providing you do not listen too loud
Read the DIY Audio reference thread for a discussion on design that really worked, although the drivers are now in short supply or unobtainable

 

[grec13]

hello
This is my Debut post

I am embarking on a rather ambitious speaker project. My goal is to build a floor standing speaker(Pair), which has a frequency range of
20 Hz to 20 KHz.
I don't have a working knowledge of crossover design. so i have sourced pre-made crossovers. 2 of them in this case
one 3-way crossover for the tweeter, midrange and woofer. And another single 100 Hz Low Pass 4 Ohm Crossover for the sub woofer.
i am hoping to install all the drivers in a single tower (4-Way Pair)
Enclosure Dimensions are: Height= 45", Width=18" and Depth=22"
I want to know if my design is sound or do i need to redesign
and i want to know if the crossovers i have chosen will work with the drivers mentioned below.
If the crossover chosen for this project is not right, can somebody help me design one
I haven't procured the drivers or started work on the enclosure.
Wanted to run things by experienced DIYers beforehand.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks

Drivers
1. 12" Champion Series TS-W1208F Sub Woofer [ 20 Hz to 110 Hz]Specifications
Size30 cmMax. Music Power (Nominal)1,000 W (300 W)Frequency Response20 Hz to 110 HzSensitivity (1 W/1 m)95 dbImpedance4 ΩMounting Depth143 mmCut-Out Dimensions278mm
2.Woofer : Polk Audio 10" High performance Woofer [30 Hz. to 8 kHz]

Specifications
Size / Type = 10" stiff treated paper cone woofer
SPL = 91 db @ 1w/1m
Wattage = 200 Watts RMS / 400 Watts Peak
Stiif Thick Treated Paper cone woofer, foam surround
Response = 30 Hz. to 8 kHz.
Weight = Right a 6 pounds ea.
Magnet = 64 oz. unshielded
VC = 2" ( 50 mm)
Ohms = 4 ohms

TS Measurements

f(s) - 37 Hz.
Q(ms) - 4.070
V(as) - 34.71 liters ( 1.226 cf. )
n(0) - 0.32%
M(ms) - 112.60 grams
R(e) - 0.36 Ohms
Q(es) - 0.517
SPL - 91 dB @ 1W/1m
C(ms) - 0.16 mm/N
Z(max) - 3.12 Ohms
Q(ts) - 0.453
L(e) - 0.11 mH
3. Midrange: Polk Audio MW5530 Woofers 5 1/4" - 4 ohms - New - Pair [FR: 45 Hz. to 10 kHz.] 110 Watts

Specifications
5 1/4"
Size / Type = 5.250" Dynamic Balance® polymer cone woofer
SPL = 91 db @ 1w/1m
Wattage = 110 Watts RMS / 220 Watts Peak
Polymer cone woofer, rubber surround
Response = 45 Hz. to 10 kHz.
Weight = Right a 3 pound ea.
Magnet = Un-Shielded 16 oz.
VC = 1" ( 25 mm)
Ohms = 4 ohms

TS Measurements
f(s) - 69 Hz.
Q(ms) - 9.521
V(as) - 7.56 liters ( 0.267 cf. )
n(0) - 0.37%
M(ms) - 10.11 grams
R(e) - 3.69 Ohms
Q(es) - 0.666
SPL - 91 dB @ 1W/1m
C(ms) - 0.51 mm/N
Z(max) - 56.44 Ohms
Q(ts) - 0.622
L(e) - 0.36 mH
BL - 4.96

4. Tweeter: Mavin T-1 High Power Tweeter 90 Watts RMS 4 Ohms 92dB pair [ FR: 1.5 kHz. to 21 K Hz .] 90 Watts
Specifications

Soft Silk Dome
90 Watts RMS Power Rating
4 ohm impedance
A Practical Frequency Range from 1,500 Hz. to 21,000 Hz.
1 inch silk dome ( 50 mm ) and Voice Coil Shielded
Size 4" Dia. for a 2 3/4" eye browed mounting hole, and a 1 3/4" mounting depth. 4 mounting screw holes

CROSSOVERS

1. High Performance Mavin CR38 3 Way 12 dB 4 Ohm Crossover Pair
2. 100 Hz Low Pass 4 Ohm Crossover. for Sub Woofer

Specifications

1.Crossover : 3 Way
High impact thermo plastic enclosure
12 dB slope
Gold Plated terminals
4 ohm impedance
500 Watt RMS power rating
Crossover points are 1300Hz and 4500Hz.
Size L x W x H 125 x 95 x 34 mm
or
4.875" x 3.750" x 1.375"
or
4 7/8" x 3 3/4" x 1 3/8"

2. Low Pass Crossover For Sub Woofer

• Approximately 250 watts RMS • Type: Low pass • Driver impedance: 4 ohm • Crossover frequency: 100 Hz • Roll off: 12 dB.

Thanks

For High Fidelity you choose totally wrong, junk woofers and drivers.
If you want to succeed - forget about 4 way. Save your time and your money.

 

[Jonathan Bright]

I think we all agree that elrosh has "jumped in at the deep end" and made a much more ambitious start than a lot of people would ever contemplate but I don't think a blanket condemnation of his proposal is very helpful.
He did ask for assistance and as far as I can see he has not as yet said exactly what he is trying to achieve other than a 20 to 20k bandwidth. It may NOT be "hifi" that he wants and until we know a bit more of his goals I think the community would do well to encourage and nurture his plans (with suitable modifications) rather than tip a bucket on the whole idea. Starting with "junk" drivers has lot of merit if you intend to learn by experience. Better than buying high end stuff and then deciding you made a mistake.
We have all been where he is and few of us has been brave enough to stick our necks out and attempt what he is suggesting first time around.
He is humble enough to admit that he doesn't know a lot and and is seeking guidance form us.
We ought to be a little sympathetic........
Cheers, Jonathan

 

[Moondog55]

Sorry if I came across that way, I was trying to give elrosh an idea of how hard his project was. I am actually a firm believer in jumping in and just "doing it"

 

[Jonathan Bright]

No need for apologies Moondog55. Actually I hadn't read your post when I was "letting off steam" and it wasn't your response I had in mind!
Btw better luck next year in the AFL. Geelong is probably my second favourite side after Ess. I had high hopes for you guys when we dropped out of the Eight..
Cheers, Jonathan