Do you use the minidsp as a preamp then?
There do seem to be quite a few options for pro audio computer interfaces. It may be worth looking into down the road but for now the minidsp is doing well. Since you're running a PC anyway I could see how that would be pretty convenient. I have an all in one touchscreen pc sitting around that could be utilized for this. There's something to be said for the simplicity of the constantly powered minidsp and how you just load files and never really have to fiddle with it beyond that if you don't want to.
I'll be keeping an eye on the DLCP. The Note II would have to implement two of them I'm assuming given that they're only six channel? The Nadja looks decent but buying into a dead project with something so reliant on software seems like a gamble.
There do seem to be quite a few options for pro audio computer interfaces. It may be worth looking into down the road but for now the minidsp is doing well. Since you're running a PC anyway I could see how that would be pretty convenient. I have an all in one touchscreen pc sitting around that could be utilized for this. There's something to be said for the simplicity of the constantly powered minidsp and how you just load files and never really have to fiddle with it beyond that if you don't want to.
I'll be keeping an eye on the DLCP. The Note II would have to implement two of them I'm assuming given that they're only six channel? The Nadja looks decent but buying into a dead project with something so reliant on software seems like a gamble.
No, the miniDSP volume control is kept at 100%, I use JRiver, on a wireless media keyboard and/or Gizmo remote (for JRiver) on my android phone.
The PC sits under my 60" TV, which gets used for main control interface for music play with JRiver, plus Netflix. Speakers & miniDSP get used for Netflix too -- sounds excellent except for the too-frequent mumbling that's all the rage for male actors these days.
Yup.
Hmmm, that's not a bad idea. Gizmo looks like a decent way of remotely controlling things when a media keyboard or easy access to a screen is not available. I will keep that in mind thank you!
Would there be any benefit to creating an adjustable plinth for the NaO's? Something that could implement a little bit of forward or backward tilt. I know the drivers are time aligned through the mini dsp so does that make it pretty much a pointless endeavor? I had some sort of X frame with adjustable spikes in mind but have a feeling that it would be more aesthetic than anything.
Would there be any benefit to creating an adjustable plinth for the NaO's? Something that could implement a little bit of forward or backward tilt. I know the drivers are time aligned through the mini dsp so does that make it pretty much a pointless endeavor? I had some sort of X frame with adjustable spikes in mind but have a feeling that it would be more aesthetic than anything.
Noticed JohnK is shutting down his site and decided to check in on this thread. A well-deserved retirement certainly.
@jamite I had a similarly annoying AC hum that was mostly (but not completely) eliminated with shorter, better RCA cables between my power amplifier and the minidsp. I still want to purchase higher quality (blue jeans cable, maybe) cables to see if it would help further but haven't gotten around to it. If you haven't tried, you might consider replacing yours to see if it helps.
@jamite I had a similarly annoying AC hum that was mostly (but not completely) eliminated with shorter, better RCA cables between my power amplifier and the minidsp. I still want to purchase higher quality (blue jeans cable, maybe) cables to see if it would help further but haven't gotten around to it. If you haven't tried, you might consider replacing yours to see if it helps.
I have been dealing with hum, additionally a new source of low frequency buzzing has appeared so I'm rewiring my system.
I will place both amps (each having two 125ASX2 ICEPower modules in them) directly ontop of the 4x10HD, connected with some short (50 cm) properly shielded interconnects. Then I'm running fat 8 pole speaker cabling to each speaker, all connected using big fat Neutrik connectors.
Beyond that I'm thinking of implementing room correction - Dirac Live 3 is tempting me but the price is still quite substantial. Does anyone have experience with using room correction software with their NaO Note II RS?
Other future ideas of mine include using the new ICEPower 200AS2 modules to build new amplifiers, and using an 8 channel DAC/DSP such as the open-source Aurora DSP (which can also implement FIR/IIR filters) instead of the MiniDSP.
I was sad to discover your website was down John. Thanks for the wonderful builds, I'll be enjoying these speakers for years to come still!
Thanks very much for the link.
During rewiring I seem to have fried the tweeters on the R channel! If I am not mistaken, they are the "Peerless by Tymphany OX20SC00-04 3/4" Fabric Dome Tweeter". They are cheap, at least, however I have no idea how to go about replacing them.
As they are glued in place, along with the fact that the front baffle is glued to the additional back tweeter baffle, I cannot think of an easy method of exchanging them. If anyone has any good ideas I would be all ears. Given that I used white wood glue to glue the baffle pieces together, perhaps vinegar would work?
During rewiring I seem to have fried the tweeters on the R channel! If I am not mistaken, they are the "Peerless by Tymphany OX20SC00-04 3/4" Fabric Dome Tweeter". They are cheap, at least, however I have no idea how to go about replacing them.
As they are glued in place, along with the fact that the front baffle is glued to the additional back tweeter baffle, I cannot think of an easy method of exchanging them. If anyone has any good ideas I would be all ears. Given that I used white wood glue to glue the baffle pieces together, perhaps vinegar would work?
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For Posterity
I was able to remove the tweeters by using a combination of vinegar to weaken the wood glue, an craft knife, a heat gun, and finally a sharpened metal painter's spatula to pry open the interface.
Curiously enough both tweeters still measure approximately a 4 ohm DC resistance across them. I wonder what the failure mode is.
New tweeters should arrive by the end of this week.
I was able to remove the tweeters by using a combination of vinegar to weaken the wood glue, an craft knife, a heat gun, and finally a sharpened metal painter's spatula to pry open the interface.
Curiously enough both tweeters still measure approximately a 4 ohm DC resistance across them. I wonder what the failure mode is.
New tweeters should arrive by the end of this week.
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Hello, first of all thanks very much to John K for this GREAT project!
I bought the plans a pair of years ago but still wasn't able to start building for many unfortunate reasons.
In the meanwhile i have read this thread and many others about open baffle speakers. They seem to be really good and lifelike sounding but with some shortcomings. One of them seem to be bass (expecially deep bass) level, so we can see many 15"-pair-woofers passive speakers today blooming on commercial and diy stages, with 50cm + baffles. Probably they need so large (and so many) wooofers due to the lack of active EQ possibilities...
I'm very curious to understand how much narrower (with smaller woofers) speakers like Nao Note II RS or LX521 can play serious deep and powerful bass in a medium listening room. For what i have read (please correct me if i misunderstood), these speakers' bass is very tight and articulate, much better than most boxed speakers, but still not as deep and powerful as good vented or closed box designs, so i guess more bass could be welcome (John suggests pairing Nao Note to conventional subs, too). But other factors have to be taken into account, first of all the cost factor.
So i would like to ask a few (maybe stupid) questions:
1. Given that i can find 12" 835017 woofers at the same price one normally can buy 10" 835016, would it be feasible (and with good results) to use 12" drivers instead of 10" ones in a Nao Note II RS build? It wouldn't be much of a problem for me to make woofer section 2" wider (and maybe taller) to accomodate 12" ones, and (try to) correct DSP setup accordingly... I see SPL gain is not much higher (maybe a pair of dB), but lower extension seems to be significantly deeper.
2. I found another close 12" brother of 835017 woofer called XXLS-300F50AL01-04, that seems to have even higher SPL, lower frequencies linearity and lower price too, but i wasn't able to find it on sale here in Europe, a minimum of 50 have to be ordered. Would it be a good candidate? Does anyone know where could i find it on sale here in Europe in small amounts?
Thank you very much in advance for your answers!
I bought the plans a pair of years ago but still wasn't able to start building for many unfortunate reasons.
In the meanwhile i have read this thread and many others about open baffle speakers. They seem to be really good and lifelike sounding but with some shortcomings. One of them seem to be bass (expecially deep bass) level, so we can see many 15"-pair-woofers passive speakers today blooming on commercial and diy stages, with 50cm + baffles. Probably they need so large (and so many) wooofers due to the lack of active EQ possibilities...
I'm very curious to understand how much narrower (with smaller woofers) speakers like Nao Note II RS or LX521 can play serious deep and powerful bass in a medium listening room. For what i have read (please correct me if i misunderstood), these speakers' bass is very tight and articulate, much better than most boxed speakers, but still not as deep and powerful as good vented or closed box designs, so i guess more bass could be welcome (John suggests pairing Nao Note to conventional subs, too). But other factors have to be taken into account, first of all the cost factor.
So i would like to ask a few (maybe stupid) questions:
1. Given that i can find 12" 835017 woofers at the same price one normally can buy 10" 835016, would it be feasible (and with good results) to use 12" drivers instead of 10" ones in a Nao Note II RS build? It wouldn't be much of a problem for me to make woofer section 2" wider (and maybe taller) to accomodate 12" ones, and (try to) correct DSP setup accordingly... I see SPL gain is not much higher (maybe a pair of dB), but lower extension seems to be significantly deeper.
2. I found another close 12" brother of 835017 woofer called XXLS-300F50AL01-04, that seems to have even higher SPL, lower frequencies linearity and lower price too, but i wasn't able to find it on sale here in Europe, a minimum of 50 have to be ordered. Would it be a good candidate? Does anyone know where could i find it on sale here in Europe in small amounts?
Thank you very much in advance for your answers!
If you try to extend the low end of your two main channel speakers you wind up heading in the wrong direction. There's a frequency range in your room, caused but the size of your room, that changes how long low frequency wavelengths begin to operate. The long wavelengths get squished by your room. That region is called the modal region. It requires a different system design than the standard two channel stereo speakers.
The modal region is normally addressed by using multiple low frequency speakers (i.e. multi-subwoofers.)
It's possible you might want to remove the 10" from the NAO Note IIs entirely and replace them with a multi-sub setup. It just depends on your room size.
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Hello Bradleypnw, thanks for the quick reply.
I corrently built a pair of 10" woofers boxed/vented stereo speakers, they can go easily down to 25/30 hz in my room (measured) and deep bass is powerful and at proper SPL as needed. So i guess my room is not a problem for deep/powerful bass.
But speakers i had (and built) before, with 8" or 6,5" woofers, weren't able to go that low nor to reach the same SPL on lower bass: so obviously woofers size and parameters (and box volume, clearly) are very important for speakers bass extension and power, as can be clearly seen in nominal response curves of any woofer. For example, it is well accepted in this thread that using XXLS woofers can provide deeper and more powerful bass than using SLS woofers, even in the same room.
Then, i'll try to take care of room modes and other factors that affect diffusion of bass produced by my speakers in my room (and thanks again for stressing that aspect), but i first want to be sure that my speakers can abundantly provide powerful and deep enough bass to be diffused in my room...
N.B.: I say "abundantly" because i guess that it's much easier, using a DSP in an active speaker system, to shape/limit plentiful bass than to enhance insufficient bass - but i understand that "abundantly" is maybe improper, speaking of open baffle speakers.
I remember JohnK mentiong somewhere that he thinks monopole bass is good for lowest bass. My AINOs have closed box 10" subwoofers as heritage of Gradient 1.3 and I cross them around 150Hz. A friend has dipole low bass (2x12") but in a different room and I can't say if it's better. Anyway fast closed box low bass gives very good umph! DSP and measurements is definitely needed to make them integrate.
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Thank you Juhazi, your (and Bradleypnw's and John's too) suggestion absolutely makes sense and surely would be the best solution.
But my problem is that i barely can place a pair of speakers in my living room without being thrown away with all my gears, so not to speak about placing there a pair (or more) additional subs...
Then i have to build a pair of speakers that can do all is needed in the best way by themselves. Nao Note II RS are a dream come true for me, i just am asking to owners/designers if using a pair of 12" woofers instead of 10" ones could be a good idea to enhance a not so good bass performance (given that i cannot add any subs) and if it could lead to problems in any way.
After all, i've never read of any owner of 2x15" OB speakers (say Pure Audio Project Trio or Spatial Audio M3, for example) saying their bass is lacking in low extension or weak, instead they all claim their bass is exceptional. Then 2x15" should be ok, but too big for my Nao Note build. The largest woofers i can accomodate in my build is 2x12", so...
But my problem is that i barely can place a pair of speakers in my living room without being thrown away with all my gears, so not to speak about placing there a pair (or more) additional subs...
Then i have to build a pair of speakers that can do all is needed in the best way by themselves. Nao Note II RS are a dream come true for me, i just am asking to owners/designers if using a pair of 12" woofers instead of 10" ones could be a good idea to enhance a not so good bass performance (given that i cannot add any subs) and if it could lead to problems in any way.
After all, i've never read of any owner of 2x15" OB speakers (say Pure Audio Project Trio or Spatial Audio M3, for example) saying their bass is lacking in low extension or weak, instead they all claim their bass is exceptional. Then 2x15" should be ok, but too big for my Nao Note build. The largest woofers i can accomodate in my build is 2x12", so...
The thing about dipole bass is you can never have enough of it!
The Note II RS crosses the woofer over at 110Hz. At that frequency neither polar response nor break-up is going to be an issue. I can't see any reason not to use the 12's. Choose the ones with the largest Xmax that you can afford and EQ them to their last mm of excursion.
Max SPL aside, room peaks and cancellations are still going to exist with the dipole sub-bass. This could be annoying with two sources symmetrically placed in the room and close to the listening position. You will not have the ability to move them around to get a more even response. You could solve this with digital FIR equalization but that's a whole other can of worms.
In the big picture, separate monopole subs crossed under, say, 50hz are best. Would you consider putting one right under or behind your listening seat?
The Note II RS crosses the woofer over at 110Hz. At that frequency neither polar response nor break-up is going to be an issue. I can't see any reason not to use the 12's. Choose the ones with the largest Xmax that you can afford and EQ them to their last mm of excursion.
Max SPL aside, room peaks and cancellations are still going to exist with the dipole sub-bass. This could be annoying with two sources symmetrically placed in the room and close to the listening position. You will not have the ability to move them around to get a more even response. You could solve this with digital FIR equalization but that's a whole other can of worms.
In the big picture, separate monopole subs crossed under, say, 50hz are best. Would you consider putting one right under or behind your listening seat?
Thank you Tommus, your reply is very clear and encouraging.
Unfortunately i don't have the possibility to place a sub in my room, not even under my seat. WAF is nearly always the most limiting factor...
Of course i'll try my best at DSP programming, considering my DSP will be at player level ahead of a multichannel dac, so i could measure, use softwares like Acourate or Audiolense and load their output IR files in HQPlayer.
About 12" woofers, i see XXLS ones have 12,4 mm xmax, not bad at all. Do anybody know other 12" woofers doing that better at similar price?
If not, does anybody know where can XXLS-300F50AL01-04 woofers be purchased in Europe in small quantities?
Unfortunately i don't have the possibility to place a sub in my room, not even under my seat. WAF is nearly always the most limiting factor...
Of course i'll try my best at DSP programming, considering my DSP will be at player level ahead of a multichannel dac, so i could measure, use softwares like Acourate or Audiolense and load their output IR files in HQPlayer.
About 12" woofers, i see XXLS ones have 12,4 mm xmax, not bad at all. Do anybody know other 12" woofers doing that better at similar price?
If not, does anybody know where can XXLS-300F50AL01-04 woofers be purchased in Europe in small quantities?
As i said, i have no problem in finding XXLS-P835017 woofers here in europe at good price.
But i can't find woofers code XXLS-300F50AL01-04 in small quantities, a 50-pcs. order is needed in all Europe shops i found selling them. That's why i asked...
Oh sorry I missed the model no. Seems to be hard to find...
Are you sure that there is a remarkable difference? Other good options are plentiful - high excursion is necessary. How about Peerless NE315?
Subwoofers 12 inch | Europe audio
More options AUDIO-HI.FI - wide range of Scan-Speak, SEAS, Peerless and Vifa woofers and subwoofers
Are you sure that there is a remarkable difference? Other good options are plentiful - high excursion is necessary. How about Peerless NE315?
Subwoofers 12 inch | Europe audio
More options AUDIO-HI.FI - wide range of Scan-Speak, SEAS, Peerless and Vifa woofers and subwoofers
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