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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

rePhase, a loudspeaker phase linearization, EQ and FIR filtering tool
rePhase, a loudspeaker phase linearization, EQ and FIR filtering tool
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Old 17th March 2019, 02:09 PM   #2671
pos is offline pos  Europe
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Hello arcgotic,

Just to make sure I understand properly, you are comparing IIR+FIR linearization to full FIR, right?

In both cases you are also supposed to no just linearize the phase of the electrical filter, but of the resulting acoustical filter (ie electrical+"mechanical", both magnitude and phase).

Anyway, IIR+FIR linearization or full FIR, the result should be the same down to the quantization errors, including the amount of pre/post ringing.
Do the measured impulse responses also look the same?
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Old 17th March 2019, 02:12 PM   #2672
chebum is offline chebum  Poland
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rePhase, a loudspeaker phase linearization, EQ and FIR filtering tool
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Originally Posted by arcgotic View Post
So the measurement looks the same but I can clearly say that the sound is more detailed/refined with the IIR filter. It has a better definition, 'bite'. I listen at low level, 70 to 85dB at listening position.

What is the cause? the pre-ringing of the FIR filter?

Thanks!
How many taps does your fir filter have? In my experience shorter filters sound rough. Longer filters (300ms and longer) sound much smoother. I didn't see any ringing in REW measurements, but still shorter FIRs sound more rough to my ears.

Don't know the reasons except that shorter FIRs doesn't follow target curve as precise as with longer FIRs. Probably, these smallish errors make shorter FIR filters sound rough.
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Old 17th March 2019, 04:42 PM   #2673
gabdx is offline gabdx  Canada
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Personally, I hear a lot of sound degradation if I use any digital filter DSP or any software to EQ or change phase. THD must increase, measurable or not.

I hear more distortion on vinyl but the sound is so much better in many aspects that I never listen to digital, cd, hi-rez digital recordings are no longer listened too.

The sound wave is a whole, dissecting it into bits and parts and trying to arrange phase/eq/filter bands, however advanced the maths is something impossible.

In comparison, for vinyl you use only 2 passive filters to restore the curve, then a very clever XO for the speakers (best time, impulse, EQ, phase, resonance damping, polar response possible), if it is done right you don't need EQ after, this is the whole theory of high fidelity sound. The best recordings were done with this philosophy. Only EQ before the song is recorded, 2 or 3 takes without any EQ post recording.
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Old 17th March 2019, 04:59 PM   #2674
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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It might be your theory, but it isn't the subject of this thread. Personally I see time delay, for instance due to using passive components, as just another form of distortion, not present in natural sound.
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Old 17th March 2019, 06:06 PM   #2675
chebum is offline chebum  Poland
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rePhase, a loudspeaker phase linearization, EQ and FIR filtering tool
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Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
With eq we typically suppress loud parts of spectrum which leads to effectively lower total efficiency. Then, to get same spl level in a measurement (say that 95dB/1m), we must use higher voltage and we will see higher distortion percentage.
I'm not sure we will see higher voltages across the whole spectrum. The voltage will be higher for initially quite parts of the spectrum and lower for the louder frequencies. It isn't that we will need more Watts to get the same loudness level with an equalized speaker. We won't. Just the Watts will be spread differently. Some frequencies will see higher voltages than others.
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Old 17th March 2019, 06:11 PM   #2676
arcgotic is online now arcgotic  Romania
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I use 4000 taps filters. I will make measurements soon.
One filter uses only minimum phase filters and minimm-phase PEQ, and the other one linear phase filters and linear PEQ.
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Old 17th March 2019, 07:14 PM   #2677
chebum is offline chebum  Poland
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rePhase, a loudspeaker phase linearization, EQ and FIR filtering tool
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Originally Posted by arcgotic View Post
I use 4000 taps filters. I will make measurements soon.

One filter uses only minimum phase filters and minimm-phase PEQ, and the other one linear phase filters and linear PEQ.
These are too short even if your stream is at 44.1KHz. Try 16000 taps, it will sound smoother. Also, check if you enabled optimizations in rephase.

If your convolver supports different formats, choose 32bit WAV, not 16bit. 32bit filter will have higher precision.
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Old 17th March 2019, 07:28 PM   #2678
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcgotic View Post
I use 4000 taps filters. I will make measurements soon.

One filter uses only minimum phase filters and minimm-phase PEQ, and the other one linear phase filters and linear PEQ.
I would suggest using linear phase filters and minimum phase EQ. As drivers are minimum phase devices the (p)EQ will fix the phase as well, when the PEQ fixes the frequency response. The linear phase filters are ment to compensate for crossovers. Generally speaking, any response EQ would/could be minimum phase for restoring frequency and phase together.
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Old 18th March 2019, 12:12 AM   #2679
pos is offline pos  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arcgotic View Post
I use 4000 taps filters. I will make measurements soon.
One filter uses only minimum phase filters and minimm-phase PEQ, and the other one linear phase filters and linear PEQ.
That is quite different from what I understood from your last post!
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Old 18th March 2019, 12:16 AM   #2680
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chebum View Post
Also, check if you enabled optimizations in rephase.
I would recommend not to use optimization, unless you really need it (ie you don't have enough taps at hand for the task).
Optimization is an iterative process that tries to get the result magnitude response as close as possible to the target one, which often implies loosening the magnitude/phase relation...
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