Tony Gee's LBS or Paul Carmody's Amigas?

teamacc · 2012-07-11 12:24 am

Hey guys,

I've been a long-time reader of this forum and recently decided to build a pair of speakers during my summer holidays.
As many other threads already pointed out, designing something from scratch is quite hard, especially for a beginner.

I stumbled across 2 designs that seem to fit: Tony Gee's Low Budged Speaker and Paul Carmody's Amigas.

Deciding between those is quite hard for me, as I never heard either of them.

My setup will be:
L25D amp, possibly a TK2050 instead (will try both though)
Small-ish room, approx 16m^2

So basically I'm looking for a nice pair of floorstanding speakers (preferably DIY but great secondhand speakers will do too) under 500 euros/pair which will have the best sound available at that price. I will not be pairing them with a subwoofer though.

Anyone wants to share some thoughts about this?

sreten · 2012-07-11 12:59 am

Hi,

If your thinking about used speakers its probably best not to go through
the convoluted pain of building your first speakers, if sound quality is the
major issue. 500 euro should cover some serious quality used speakers.

Don't know your local used market though. I like the Amigas.

rgds, sreten.

Inductor · 2012-07-11 2:38 am

Better the former than the latter (this is, best bang for the buck).
You have a versatile (1) speaker against a uninteresting old design (2).
Let's see.
Mid-woofer: (2x) MONACOR SPH-176 vs. DAYTON RS180S-8
First is pressed steel against cast frame but they are almost identical. The Dayton goes lower a bit but I would put my money on the harmonics of the Monacor (you have two woofers on each speaker after all), mids are more important.
Tweeter: DT-254 vs. Vifa D25AG-35-06 (post Tymphany?) you probably can't find it anymore, maybe obsolete. Here: Speaker & Co
Again, I would put my money on the silk dome so I wouldn't regret later...
More crossover potential residing on 1st choice.
Now, it's your turn...

I'm going to post simulation for the low end potential of each driver. For a double driver (Monacor/88dB) give more ~6dB. In the case of the Dayton third graph is showing a higher tunning of the speaker/driver with VB = 30.0 L, FB = 39.0 Hz.

SPH-176
http://monacor.co.uk/products/speakerbuilding-hifitweeter/vnr/102780/?type=257&no_cache=1
http://www.audiokit.it/ITAENG/Altoparlanti/DAYTON/RS180S-8_specsheet.pdf

5th element · 2012-07-11 3:00 am

For what it's worth I reckon the Monacor mid/bass drivers probably have pretty basic motors and a performance to match. The RS180 on the other hand is one of the leading drivers where performance on a budget is concerned and in Europe, the RS180 costs roughly the same as the monacor driver anyway.

I would build the Amiga's in a heartbeat over the Monacor design.

teamacc · 2012-07-11 3:09 am

Inductor said:
Better the former than the latter (this is, best bang for the buck).
You have a versatile (1) speaker against a uninteresting old design (2).
Let's see.
Mid-woofer: (2x) MONACOR SPH-176 vs. DAYTON RS180S-8
First is pressed steel against cast frame but they are almost identical. The Dayton goes lower a bit but I would put my money on the harmonics of the Monacor (you have two woofers on each speaker after all), mids are more important.
Tweeter: DT-254 vs. Vifa D25AG-35-06 (post Tymphany?) you probably can't find it anymore, maybe obsolete. Here: Speaker & Co
Again, I would put my money on the silk dome so I wouldn't regret later...
More crossover potential residing on 1st choice.
Now, it's your turn...
I'm going to post simulation for the low end potential of each driver. For a double driver (Monacor/88dB) give more ~6dB. In the case of the Dayton third graph is showing a higher tunning of the speaker/driver with VB = 30.0 L, FB = 39.0 Hz.

SPH-176
http://monacor.co.uk/products/speakerbuilding-hifitweeter/vnr/102780/?type=257&no_cache=1
http://www.audiokit.it/ITAENG/Altoparlanti/DAYTON/RS180S-8_specsheet.pdf

The amigas actually use the DX25TG09-04 which should still be available. To quote Paul: Note: Vifa has changed part numbers slightly. I used the original version when I built this design, however I updated the BOM for the the "new" version of the DX25. Apparently, Vifa got a new supplier for the silk dome, but the new version measures the same as the old one)

Monacor drivers do indeed seem to be able to produce higher outputs, not the least due to dual drivers but as-is the amigas seem to go a little bit lower.

The feeling i get from reading the LBS build log is that Tony got monacor to either pay him for a design or got the drivers at a discount/for free if he did a design for them as everything in that speaker (except the crossover, Tony would never let anyone decide which parts to use in a crossover) are made by monacor.

The amigas seem to be built around an idea rather than a brand, although optimized for parts-express customers.

Inductor · 2012-07-11 3:21 am

I'm not sure you can change a metal dome tweeter with a silk dome and leave the same design (crossover)? My problem then. Ok, it's a new design...
DX25TG09-04 - Tymphany

Inductor · 2012-07-11 3:32 am

5th element said:
I would build the Amiga's in a heartbeat over the Monacor design.

I don't dislike it for sure, but the crossover... just to mention.
F*****up to me, look at 2K5Hz, a big dip of no less than ~5dB's. Couldn't be worse... (Hope the phase is time aligned, I can't see from data.) Edit: I just checked the phase, anyway... I stay with what I said.

ScottG · 2012-07-11 5:55 am

Tony Gee's LBS or Paul Carmody's Amigas?

..neither.

Instead (..also from Paul):

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy-aethers

sreten · 2012-07-11 11:05 am

Inductor said:
I don't dislike it for sure, but the crossover... just to mention.
F*****up to me, look at 2K5Hz, a big dip of no less than ~5dB's.

Hi,

Most of that dip is due to a baffle effect of the tall and narrow cabinet.
It shows up in all PC's designs with that cabinet. It disappears off-axis.
Its recommended not to toe-in the speakers when setting up.

rgds, sreten.

teamacc · 2012-07-11 11:45 am

ScottG said:
Tony Gee's LBS or Paul Carmody's Amigas?

..neither.

Instead (..also from Paul):

https://sites.google.com/site/undefinition/diy-aethers

Those look great and seem to sound great in bigger-than-my-room sized rooms.

However, considering the limited amount of space i have going with these would mean losing considerable amount of floor space and the possibility of less-than-perfect sound due to room effects.

teamacc · 2012-07-11 12:33 pm

teamacc said:
The amigas actually use the DX25TG09-04 which should still be available. To quote Paul: Note: Vifa has changed part numbers slightly. I used the original version when I built this design, however I updated the BOM for the the "new" version of the DX25. Apparently, Vifa got a new supplier for the silk dome, but the new version measures the same as the old one)

Monacor drivers do indeed seem to be able to produce higher outputs, not the least due to dual drivers but as-is the amigas seem to go a little bit lower.

The feeling i get from reading the LBS build log is that Tony got monacor to either pay him for a design or got the drivers at a discount/for free if he did a design for them as everything in that speaker (except the crossover, Tony would never let anyone decide which parts to use in a crossover) are made by monacor.

The amigas seem to be built around an idea rather than a brand, although optimized for parts-express customers.

Small addition:
The TRS-80s were designed with the D25AG, the amigas were specifically designed around the DX25 tweeters. Read the intro on the amigas as some kind of self-reflection on the TRS-80 design instead of as an intro to the amigas.

DrDyna · 2012-07-11 1:00 pm

Not to throw any more oil on the fire, but I really enjoy my ZX Spectrums, which are in the same cabinet as the Amiga, but use the Hi-Vi N6A and B&G Neo3 PDR tweeter, which I'm absolutely in love with.

teamacc · 2012-07-11 5:18 pm

DrDyna said:
Not to throw any more oil on the fire, but I really enjoy my ZX Spectrums, which are in the same cabinet as the Amiga, but use the Hi-Vi N6A and B&G Neo3 PDR tweeter, which I'm absolutely in love with.

They seem to be at least on par with the amigas and although the tweeter price almost doubled they fit the bill.

Less distance between tweeter and woofer might even mean better results when listening at close distances right?

DrDyna · 2012-07-11 5:23 pm

teamacc said:
They seem to be at least on par with the amigas and although the tweeter price almost doubled they fit the bill.

Less distance between tweeter and woofer might even mean better results when listening at close distances right?

Possibly, I haven't tested it.

Yeah, the Neo3 is a bit more pricey but it's a phenomenal tweeter, IMHO.

You can read Zaph's impression of it here:

Zaph|Audio

Inductor · 2012-07-11 8:25 pm

DrDyna said:
Not to throw any more oil on the fire...

No at all, is up-to-date conversation, the kind of problems you go trough to find a speaker to (dis?)satisfy a broad spectrum of people...

"B&G Neo3" I was also thinking about that as a variation from the typical dome.

sideways · 2012-07-11 10:37 pm

I have that Neo3 paired up right now with a Morel driver...tiss happiness is right!!

Coming from open baffles, I thought I would never go back to a box but this tweet in dipole mode, leaves me not wanting much!!

nrg2009 · 2013-01-15 2:57 am

Great discussion. Did you end up building a set of speakers? Maybe some photos. I am also interested in a diy speaker project. I have the frugal horn mk3 with Alpair 7.3, but would like a 2 or 3 way speaker to compare it with.

nrg2009 · 2013-08-19 12:49 am

Would the amigas be good in a 2.5 configuration? Add a 2nd driver to play the .5 similar to Zaph ZRT 2.5

sreten · 2013-08-23 8:46 pm

nrg2009 said:
Would the amigas be good in a 2.5 configuration?
Add a 2nd driver to play the .5 similar to Zaph ZRT 2.5

Hi,

Only if you like it loud and the Amigas don't go loud enough.
You could double the box depth and completely redesign
the crossover, PC may be up for it if you contact him.

There is no simple way to go 2.5 from 2 way.

rgds, sreten.

Tony Gee's LBS or Paul Carmody's Amigas?

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