"your organ synth program must be outputting from a soundcard, your soundcard is unlikely to go below 20hz, so I wonder what the noise you were listening to was? harmonics from the 4hz wave? what audio interface are you using?"
A laptop sound card. On linux. Linux doesn't protect.
I could output 4hz, I watched the infinity's cone move back and forth at 4 osilations per second.
$20 per paper cone is still a ton of money. What about those pyle ultra-chinese made ones?
About 5 dollar speakers: apparently someone payed 500 dollars for these. Could whomever tell his friend I nuked a pair of the 500 dollar speakers?
A laptop sound card. On linux. Linux doesn't protect.
I could output 4hz, I watched the infinity's cone move back and forth at 4 osilations per second.
$20 per paper cone is still a ton of money. What about those pyle ultra-chinese made ones?
About 5 dollar speakers: apparently someone payed 500 dollars for these. Could whomever tell his friend I nuked a pair of the 500 dollar speakers?
I have a this reciever:
Pioneer - 625W 5.1-Channel A/V Home Theater Receiver - VSX-521-K
It won't let me do the overlap I want. Just a cutoff and change to subwoofer.
Pioneer - 625W 5.1-Channel A/V Home Theater Receiver
Pioneer - 625W 5.1-Channel A/V Home Theater Receiver - VSX-521-K
It won't let me do the overlap I want. Just a cutoff and change to subwoofer.
Pioneer - 625W 5.1-Channel A/V Home Theater Receiver
I'm not sure why you'd want to overlap--there are reasons to do that but not generally what you are doing. You are trying to get "more bass" by beating the heck out of the mains--there is a way to do that correctly as car audio, PA and some home theater systems are setup that way.
The frequency of 2Hz to 5Hz has been linked to motion sickness which would explain why it is not used in any form of music.
If you want to watch cones move back and forth, get some really cheap subs from craigslist--most people get over their fascination of watching cones move around and sell the things--take advantage of that.
As far as pressurizing a room at 4Hz to a level you can feel--it takes a special room, huge systems and the like. If $20 is too much to spend on an 8" POS speaker--forget about 4 Hz, 8 Hz or 16Hz... to get 18Hz at decent levels takes about $200 in woofers, $200 in wood/screws/glue, $350 for the amp/crossover/protection system and a lot of time to build the beast. Sitting at $750 and you'll have a really giant, heavy and ugly box--it should hit 16Hz if sitting in a corner. Pray the 250 pound box don't fall over--it will leave a mark.
My vote is get some ultra-cheap automotive subwoofers from Craigslist, enjoy watching the cones move back and forth and learn what distortion and voice coils smacking magnets sound like in person. If you buy them with a box, remove the drivers and make sure they have a perfect seal--glue all the edges inside with Gorilla Glue and use caulk around the woofer to make sure.
Amusing to experiment with and you'll get the answers you seek. Don't expect it to be in any way musical or even remotely close to the Infinities in quality but that is not the point anyway. No point in beating up decent sound equipment (Paradigms/Infinity) for experiments with sound.
For your experiments, use your cheapest receiver/amp you have since it will most likely get smoked during testing.
The frequency of 2Hz to 5Hz has been linked to motion sickness which would explain why it is not used in any form of music.
If you want to watch cones move back and forth, get some really cheap subs from craigslist--most people get over their fascination of watching cones move around and sell the things--take advantage of that.
As far as pressurizing a room at 4Hz to a level you can feel--it takes a special room, huge systems and the like. If $20 is too much to spend on an 8" POS speaker--forget about 4 Hz, 8 Hz or 16Hz... to get 18Hz at decent levels takes about $200 in woofers, $200 in wood/screws/glue, $350 for the amp/crossover/protection system and a lot of time to build the beast. Sitting at $750 and you'll have a really giant, heavy and ugly box--it should hit 16Hz if sitting in a corner. Pray the 250 pound box don't fall over--it will leave a mark.
My vote is get some ultra-cheap automotive subwoofers from Craigslist, enjoy watching the cones move back and forth and learn what distortion and voice coils smacking magnets sound like in person. If you buy them with a box, remove the drivers and make sure they have a perfect seal--glue all the edges inside with Gorilla Glue and use caulk around the woofer to make sure.
Amusing to experiment with and you'll get the answers you seek. Don't expect it to be in any way musical or even remotely close to the Infinities in quality but that is not the point anyway. No point in beating up decent sound equipment (Paradigms/Infinity) for experiments with sound.
For your experiments, use your cheapest receiver/amp you have since it will most likely get smoked during testing.
This should answer your questions
http://www.howstuffworks.com/search.php?terms=speaker
Great site to visit, they have information on everything from audio to engineering, science to sewing...Enjoy!
http://www.howstuffworks.com/search.php?terms=speaker
Great site to visit, they have information on everything from audio to engineering, science to sewing...Enjoy!
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I'll chime in here, since I did something simular once, and I can appreciate a person's desire to see how deep and how loud you can make a speaker produce a sound.
I had a pair of Polk Audio 4A monitors when I was 16. They had a 6" driver and a tweeter,were 4ohm speakers, and rated to reach down to about 30hz I think. I was told that my human ears probably couldn't hear much below that anyway.
My friends and I used to like to play music with deep base and heavy drums. We would do experiments like plugging the ports (for example), or taking the tweeters out and set the cabinets on a couple two by fours with the drivers pointing toward the floor. (BTW, they always sounded best in their origional configuration as they came off the shelf at the store)
I would turn up the bass on the amplifier all the way, push the loudness button in, and crank the volume. I must admit it was fun, though now looking back, it would seem silly to anyone that knows anything about speakers. They might think "That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard".
I couldn't understand why or how I could have possibly blown an 80 watt speaker with a 40 watt amp. Same symptom as yours, the paper cones wouldn't move anymore, as if I somehow welded together some of the metal parts behind the speaker cone.
I was told that in the way I turned up the bass, loudness etc, that I was not only asking the amp and the speaker to do thing that it was not designed to do; but also trying to playback the music differently than what the origional artist intended.
I was told that amplifiers can produce 100% of their peak power at 50% of the volume level IF all the tone knobs are set FLAT, and the Loudness button is NOT engaged. When asking myself why I would want the music to sound different than the origional artist wanted to sound, I began to see the challenge, and my current quest in audio of making the music sound like the live insturments that were recorded in the first place. When listening to everything with the tone conrtolls flat, it quickly becomes apparent that if a person want more bass, they should find a speaker that is carefully designed to sound that way (i.e. a sub woofer)
Us DIY guys that you are blogging with here are into becoming educated about speakers, and building them, because that's the real fun; and hearing the music the way the origional artist recorded it and intended it to sound is very rewarding. You might find this an interesting read, Creative Sound - Product Details be sure to click the pdf link of the page (he talks about pipe organs, and the difference between an unidentifiable sound from the speaker, and the true sound of a very deep "tone") -I think you'de like reading it.
As far as your paradigms go, I would try to source the origional driver, or something as close as possible. The driver itself shouldn't cost much, it is the whole design of creating the box, tweeter, and crossover which make that specific driver sound good with that specific cabinet design and produce music accurately (like the recording artist intended) that make the entire speaker cost so much. I bet that you also enjoy listening to music and watching movies, so you'll want to use the paradigms the way they were intended -then look at something else for the bass end.
My receiver behaves in a simular way to yours, it will cut off the frequency at options of 40hz, 60hz, etc for each channel. I think it works well for what it is designed to do. I use it on my center channel, because it has smaller speakers and doesn't go that low. But my front left and rights go down to about 30hz I think, so I have those unrestricted. By not changing the tone controlls from flat, and not using the loudness controll, I can turn up my 65 watt per channel amp to about 50 percent, it is very loud, and I can hear the bass guitar and drums at the end of my driveway by my mailbox. I don't normally crank it like this though, because I don't want to damage my ears -however it doesn't seem to damage my speakers when played loudly for short periods of time. My guess it that excessive volumes like this could build too much heat and cause damage if played all day. I would look toward a nice PA if that were my goal.
I hope that helps. p.s. Before I build this speaker, I am going to make my wife a spice rack, my son a stool, and myself a workbench. I have done a bit of carpentry recently, but cabinet building has tighter tollerances necessary to do a good job, so I will practice a bit first. Also there are a couple of books on Parts Express: the #1 source for audio, video & speaker building components that interest me.
Best Regards,
Alex
I had a pair of Polk Audio 4A monitors when I was 16. They had a 6" driver and a tweeter,were 4ohm speakers, and rated to reach down to about 30hz I think. I was told that my human ears probably couldn't hear much below that anyway.
My friends and I used to like to play music with deep base and heavy drums. We would do experiments like plugging the ports (for example), or taking the tweeters out and set the cabinets on a couple two by fours with the drivers pointing toward the floor. (BTW, they always sounded best in their origional configuration as they came off the shelf at the store)
I would turn up the bass on the amplifier all the way, push the loudness button in, and crank the volume. I must admit it was fun, though now looking back, it would seem silly to anyone that knows anything about speakers. They might think "That's the dumbest idea I've ever heard".
I couldn't understand why or how I could have possibly blown an 80 watt speaker with a 40 watt amp. Same symptom as yours, the paper cones wouldn't move anymore, as if I somehow welded together some of the metal parts behind the speaker cone.
I was told that in the way I turned up the bass, loudness etc, that I was not only asking the amp and the speaker to do thing that it was not designed to do; but also trying to playback the music differently than what the origional artist intended.
I was told that amplifiers can produce 100% of their peak power at 50% of the volume level IF all the tone knobs are set FLAT, and the Loudness button is NOT engaged. When asking myself why I would want the music to sound different than the origional artist wanted to sound, I began to see the challenge, and my current quest in audio of making the music sound like the live insturments that were recorded in the first place. When listening to everything with the tone conrtolls flat, it quickly becomes apparent that if a person want more bass, they should find a speaker that is carefully designed to sound that way (i.e. a sub woofer)
Us DIY guys that you are blogging with here are into becoming educated about speakers, and building them, because that's the real fun; and hearing the music the way the origional artist recorded it and intended it to sound is very rewarding. You might find this an interesting read, Creative Sound - Product Details be sure to click the pdf link of the page (he talks about pipe organs, and the difference between an unidentifiable sound from the speaker, and the true sound of a very deep "tone") -I think you'de like reading it.
As far as your paradigms go, I would try to source the origional driver, or something as close as possible. The driver itself shouldn't cost much, it is the whole design of creating the box, tweeter, and crossover which make that specific driver sound good with that specific cabinet design and produce music accurately (like the recording artist intended) that make the entire speaker cost so much. I bet that you also enjoy listening to music and watching movies, so you'll want to use the paradigms the way they were intended -then look at something else for the bass end.
My receiver behaves in a simular way to yours, it will cut off the frequency at options of 40hz, 60hz, etc for each channel. I think it works well for what it is designed to do. I use it on my center channel, because it has smaller speakers and doesn't go that low. But my front left and rights go down to about 30hz I think, so I have those unrestricted. By not changing the tone controlls from flat, and not using the loudness controll, I can turn up my 65 watt per channel amp to about 50 percent, it is very loud, and I can hear the bass guitar and drums at the end of my driveway by my mailbox. I don't normally crank it like this though, because I don't want to damage my ears -however it doesn't seem to damage my speakers when played loudly for short periods of time. My guess it that excessive volumes like this could build too much heat and cause damage if played all day. I would look toward a nice PA if that were my goal.
I hope that helps. p.s. Before I build this speaker, I am going to make my wife a spice rack, my son a stool, and myself a workbench. I have done a bit of carpentry recently, but cabinet building has tighter tollerances necessary to do a good job, so I will practice a bit first. Also there are a couple of books on Parts Express: the #1 source for audio, video & speaker building components that interest me.
Best Regards,
Alex
I don't play recorded music through this array of speakers, only my own playing on the organ and the midi gtar. I like having lots of different speakers aimed differnently to get a greater variety of tones for the organ (due to different less-than-accurate-to-recorded-music characteristics of each speaker). Crossover accuracy and blending accuracy aren't a goal for me since I can adjust the synth to make the organ sound the way I want it to, and where some speakers lack, others fill in.
When I play bass I put in the equal-attenuation earplugs, this way I can feel the bass without loosing hearing.
Should I get that Siesmic-Audio Tremor 18 inch subwoofer PA thing and close off the vents?
For the paradigm box, I got each for 5 dollars, are there any really inexpensive chinese paper cones out there (8 inch), I saw pyles for 11 dollars each but that's still pretty steep for something's that just going to give me more midrange and no lowrange. And I still have to get another tweeter and I guess fix the crossover thing. "Bad performance" on one set of speakers doesn't bother me much, I just see it as another type of pipes. You have your flues, the flutes, etc etc, all making different types of sounds.
When I play bass I put in the equal-attenuation earplugs, this way I can feel the bass without loosing hearing.
Should I get that Siesmic-Audio Tremor 18 inch subwoofer PA thing and close off the vents?
For the paradigm box, I got each for 5 dollars, are there any really inexpensive chinese paper cones out there (8 inch), I saw pyles for 11 dollars each but that's still pretty steep for something's that just going to give me more midrange and no lowrange. And I still have to get another tweeter and I guess fix the crossover thing. "Bad performance" on one set of speakers doesn't bother me much, I just see it as another type of pipes. You have your flues, the flutes, etc etc, all making different types of sounds.
Why is audio garbage so damn fragile?
Have they never heard of over-engineering?
As for Paradigms: they are not decent equipment. They are garbage. Want to see pics of my broken ones?
Mikee3333,
1. I believe your "paradigms" are probably ripoffs. I believe they probably never were paradigms otherwise you would not have been able to purchase them for $5 each. I have reason to believe, that you are the second or third party to handle these white van replica BS speakers.
2. I have reason to believe that if these were truly paradigm speakers, then there would probably be more room for error, as any "hifi" speaker sold at a big box store is usually made from decent components and materials that can handle some stupid abuse to a reasonable extent. Your abuse may extend beyond reasonable, however, the failure mode you describe paints a picture that I perceive as a "cheap ripoff" failure mode.
3. Assuming "1" is true and "2" is true, another $10 woofer will only apply more garbage to an already very tall pile of garbage is not going to make the heap any smaller!
If you want an over-engineered speaker, you are going to pay engineering prices. Say hello to a proper low frequency driver [ http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-689 ] $900 isn't a bad deal IMO. Probably one of the finest low frequency drivers available at any price.
1. I believe your "paradigms" are probably ripoffs. I believe they probably never were paradigms otherwise you would not have been able to purchase them for $5 each. I have reason to believe, that you are the second or third party to handle these white van replica BS speakers.
2. I have reason to believe that if these were truly paradigm speakers, then there would probably be more room for error, as any "hifi" speaker sold at a big box store is usually made from decent components and materials that can handle some stupid abuse to a reasonable extent. Your abuse may extend beyond reasonable, however, the failure mode you describe paints a picture that I perceive as a "cheap ripoff" failure mode.
3. Assuming "1" is true and "2" is true, another $10 woofer will only apply more garbage to an already very tall pile of garbage is not going to make the heap any smaller!
If you want an over-engineered speaker, you are going to pay engineering prices. Say hello to a proper low frequency driver [ http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=294-689 ] $900 isn't a bad deal IMO. Probably one of the finest low frequency drivers available at any price.
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-3dB would be about right eh? [previous content has been edited down a "notch" ]
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It is in that link I posted
Since speakers are basically a motorized air pump, all motors and pumps perform better when they are as light as possible.
A speaker has a frequency response specification of say 32Hz to 20KHz with a power handling of 100 watts. If you keep it in that specification, it will give a long durable life. I blew out an Infinity 15" woofer and the speaker was rated 300 watts and my amp was "only" 200 watts. The amp never clipped so it must of been a POS speaker!
So I checked the specs and the music I was piping through them to figure out what the problem was. Freq response 44-25KHz and they were ported was my first clue. The second was this song called "3 A.M. Eternal" by the KLF which I remember being played quite a bit that night.
Although the bass peaks were "only" 200 watts max, it was operating in the 30's for bass frequencies, the woofer "unloaded" and one of them blew. Luckily, both of them did not fry so I spent the bucks and replaced the one that failed. Sold the speakers and bought a pair of small JBLs with a sub that went down to 20Hz for music--used a pair of PA speakers filtered at 40Hz for the parties.
Am I mad at Infinity? No, my fault for running them out of specification. I did have a filter at 20Hz on my pre-amp but playing dance music with bass pulses in the 30Hz range would not protect them. My main music speakers are Infinities and they do 35-20KHz with a small 8" woofer running it's own amplifier built into the speaker.
Once bitten... I paired the Infinities with a subwoofer crossed at 80Hz to protect the powered 8 inch woofers from my stupid idiot butt when I play various forms of music that go below 35Hz. They have been running fine for
13 years without any damage.
If you want a clean and musical sound--buy music speakers. If you want to blast the planet for a party--buy PA speakers with filters to protect them. If you want infrasonic bass for pipe organs--buy a sound system that is designed to perform that function. Electro Voice used to make a 30 inch woofer to duplicate the 32 foot pipe (16Hz) on a pipe organ--that should give you an idea of the level in which this game is played.
Over engineered speakers exist--PA speakers for THX IMAX theaters, rock concerts and the like are run all over the world. They are setup by people that understand the science of sound and run by people that understand the rules of sound.
At a much lower cost level is car audio--they tend to be over built a bit since their customer has no idea what efficiency is... they only understand watts. Build a very heavy cone/suspension system and stuff it in a really, really small sealed box and take advantage of cabin gain in a car to compensate. Any fool can get bass in a car, even from a pair of 6.5's in the door--not because of the amazing technology of car audio, because of the cabin gain of around +20 to +28dB at 20Hz.
Then they wonder why they have "real" BASS in the car but haul it outside, connect it up and the bass is gone...then you enter into the realm of having to learn about sound. Welcome to the rules!
You can pull that Sony sub out of your car, connect it up in your room and watch the sub jump around. Make sure it is not a ported design, we don't need additional posts about how Sony subs suck.
Read a few articles about speaker construction, tuning and how they operate at howstuffworks.com Sniff around on the internet to see the size of sound systems required to play pipe organs--note how they don't use Pyle speakers in them and the complete lack of tape for surrounds.
Got them at a tag sale, not a van, but I think you're right. Garbage paper cones from china could deal with the abuse, but these "premier" ones can't? Who makes cones out of plastic though? (Like a grey plastic you can see through, pretty stiff). Paper has always been best. Aluminum is trash except maybe for tweeters. Plastic?
"Electro Voice used to make a 30 inch woofer to duplicate the 32 foot pipe (16Hz) on a pipe organ--that should give you an idea of the level in which this game is played."
With fragile styrofoam cones that actually can't take much pounding bass. I don't think that's quite how the game is played. Maybe they wanted people to pay them for re-coning every year?
Is the Bic v1220 a good subwoofer, I have one of those, can it take the punishment?
With fragile styrofoam cones that actually can't take much pounding bass. I don't think that's quite how the game is played. Maybe they wanted people to pay them for re-coning every year?
Is the Bic v1220 a good subwoofer, I have one of those, can it take the punishment?
Paradigm 5se mkii speakers are pretty nice. I have a pair and they are still going strong since my high school and university days. The low end is only rated to 32 Hz. The cones are a textile based, plastic, translucent milky white plastic. I don't think that is wrong. They may not be the best, but they are pretty standard and aren't the worst or the best speakers I have heard.
Too bad you didn't have the same luck I have had with my pair, but then again I don't run them I to overdrive and never tried them with organ music either.
i haven't used any bic equipment,
and so can't comment about what they can take,
you might try the usual vendors, and make something .
for your paradigm box(s) -
8" Woofer With Poly Cone And Rubber Surround 70W RMS At 8ohm
and for your subs -
8 INCH CAR AUDIO SUBWOOFERS from Parts Express ship same day and come with 45 day money back guarantee. Free Shipping Available. Order free 10,000 product catalog.
http://www.parts-express.com/resources/woofer-selection-guide.cfm
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I don't think you understand the point I am making.
Let me try to make this more clear:
I believe that if your paradims were "real" then the voice coils would probably have had enough copper and a strong enough former and a deep enough gap and proper suspension limited design to handle your 4hz abuse without up an failing in seconds. Perhaps they would have eventually destroyed themselves, however I believe that the reason your paradigms failed is because they are cheap replicas with very poorly designed drivers. The various replicas over the years were intended to appear like the real thing, so they used cone materials that they could color match to the real thing. The other possibility is that the drivers are fine and you simply burnt out some crossover components. You should test the drivers with a low level signal or AA battery connected to them to see if they perhaps are still fine.
More importantly: The reasons for your failure has absolutely nothing to do with cone material.
If the hole is 7.25" diameter, here's some $9 woofers that will probably suit your taste: JAMO 20316 8" Paper Cone Woofer 299-939
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