This is very good info. Thank you. I have often thought about TD8M as midrange to go with the TPL but user references are hard to come by.
In terms of midrange performance, have you heard anything you liked better than the TD10M?
I have a TPL150 and JBL2123 combo. But it is not really 2 way, as there is a subwoofer.
The challenge you will face is that unless you attenuate the living daylights out of the TPL, there is really little choice in terms of bass-mids that comes close to the efficiency of this driver. Similar issues would quickly arise if you DID find such a driver in terms of distortion at low frequencies. [I would expect such an efficient driver to have a low overhang to achieve efficiency, and consequently constrained excursion].
If anyone has seen a high efficiency, low distortion, long throw bass mid, that can also do sub duties, catch it and send it to me!
HOWEVER: If you are happy to live with a TPL with 10+dB attenuation, then you will have:
- an indestructible tweeter
- A tweeter you can really trust to behave in close to an ideal manner
- Something that is overcooked / and damn fine.
The challenge you will face is that unless you attenuate the living daylights out of the TPL, there is really little choice in terms of bass-mids that comes close to the efficiency of this driver. Similar issues would quickly arise if you DID find such a driver in terms of distortion at low frequencies. [I would expect such an efficient driver to have a low overhang to achieve efficiency, and consequently constrained excursion].
If anyone has seen a high efficiency, low distortion, long throw bass mid, that can also do sub duties, catch it and send it to me!
HOWEVER: If you are happy to live with a TPL with 10+dB attenuation, then you will have:
- an indestructible tweeter
- A tweeter you can really trust to behave in close to an ideal manner
- Something that is overcooked / and damn fine.
Not at that size. Well designed small format wide range drivers are best for midrange as they avoid breakup and distortion in the critical band.
Have you thought about a quad array of scanspeak fullrange drivers? That would give excellent sensitivity and very low distortion
I currently use a full range driver in a horn ans midrange is excellent
Yes I agree. I was mentioning the BG simply for its fine midrange detail as a possible option I would go with if I was going to buy something.
For my own build I will simple need to look at costs involved to go 3way with existing parts or 2.5way possible.
I had not thought about a quad array of Scanspeak (or Seas). Will look into it. Thank you!
I am also considering a fullrange driver as a midrange. Interestingly, Lowther and Tang Band W8 are highly regarded with SETs yet their sensitivity is "only" 94-96dB/W.
I am experimenting with a 99dB/W 5" midrange cone in a horn too.
While fullrange do you use, in which horn?
These Full range (6", 8" )have only an interest if you move up your XO with the TPL, if not better too chose a a little FR 2.5" cone and horn it, and of course even better a 8" as PooH, etc... no miracles 
(foot print is your big problem coupled to WAF... and also size of the listening room... I will try to understand the dB atteniuation between a planar and a horn at 3 meters... is it the same attenuation with distance...)
I talked already about the Neo8s long time ago already, it makes sense... efficienty stays good enough, now does it match the pattern of the TPL 150 is an other story perhaps but you have the luck to have active XO to make steep slope (can help certainly),
2 cents (....and best quest since the Graal and Angélina Joly is busy)
(foot print is your big problem coupled to WAF... and also size of the listening room... I will try to understand the dB atteniuation between a planar and a horn at 3 meters... is it the same attenuation with distance...)I talked already about the Neo8s long time ago already, it makes sense... efficienty stays good enough, now does it match the pattern of the TPL 150 is an other story perhaps but you have the luck to have active XO to make steep slope (can help certainly),
2 cents (....and best quest since the Graal and Angélina Joly is busy)
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Though not fullrange - 4 of these and a low output impedance amplifier (typical solid-state) should provide about 102 db 1 watt 4 ohms at 1 meter average when they are wired in parallel:
M130-16 Woofer
-back-off of that by about 4 db for baffle-step compensation (but be sure to make the vertical array end closer to the floor). ..and note that the 3db dip in the midrange will "fill-out" with a 4 driver array. Also user a higher port tuning freq. and load it to the floor.
-so a net 98db isn't unrealistic in this instance, down to at least 70 Hz. (..and use a powered sub to fill-out the lower end.)
Mmmm 16 ohms... sorry but i won't eat it, with 2,83V you will only get 6dbs less as specified at 1 W by the datasheet, around 80 dbs for 1 unit, add about 10 for a 4X parallel affair, nothing to call home about...
What amp do you use, power source or voltage source?
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IMO a Edgar-style type of horn with a cf about 250hz with a large format CD (something like BMS4592 or Faital Pro HF2000 or Community M200) could be a good solution and you'll have no dispersion angle narrowing issue like issue you'll have a 10-12inch driver below TPL.
- Lewinski is making his project with the H, but some says the TPL sounds better without.
- Also it's listening room is a perfect square 5x5 m (difficult for the sound and high spl because the room modes : my experience & understanding, maybe a part of his problem to find the good mid-bass with the planar also : 5 m length is short : the two walls and also the same modes with the lateral walls)
- I assume the pattern of the horn is simplier to match to an other horn, and the planar with an other planar or a classic driver despite the vertical dispersion of a long planar for a concentric driver !
My question was open but I'm not sure the Horn is needed in Lewinski environment + he uses DSP and active filtering, so 100 dB is enough even for a 300B.
WHat Lewinski learn to us : it is hard to match a planar so low. Making a sota mid-bass area towards the high mid is even more difficult. Lack of space/foot print is a challenge. There is also a chance than the needs has growned with the work and the many tests (=experience).
All those items are sympathetic to me even if the evidence shows a more classic design could be the solution. But again the trade offs (we have all, and the new one is also the 5x5 m listening room)
If I'm wrong Lewinski will add to my words for further precision if needed.
So my idea is one of the item has to be moved : the driver (TPL 150 with or w/o Horn) or the XO point despite the force of the Beyma's is its low dpt.
And because the foot print I thinked a horn less or more big (I have not a clue here) could be a solution for the upper bass to the Beyma TPL 150. More than a 2" compression driver I was thinking to what Weltersys or xrq971 members did with musical 2.5" cone driver which can match the 100 db in a not so long horn : Vifa Tc(g)9, Scan Speak 10F/8044, etc. despite their Fs at 100 Hz they can be cuted at 200 Hz in a horn without distorsion due to the horn spl renforcment and less cone mvts (and I have also a SS 10F/8044 ; )
I'm sure a more serious mid bass horn à la Dr Edgard or Tractrix like VolvoTreter or direct horn à la Carpenter member is the solution, as the Pooh's, but again the foot print.
I also thought of a 1.5" horn like the famous 18's sound XT1064 bu the narrow 50x40° seems not good to match the TPL, even Horned ! But again this horn is said to be good and not so big and ready made (on shelf).
So my asking was to help Lewinski is his intense reflexion.
- XO between 1500 and 2100 Hz (which horn) ?
Moving this XO at upper Frequency (which horn) and as ScottL pointed out : beter no - - XO between 200 Hz to 8 000 Hz minimum (and a planar is good above)
- Give up the TPL 150
- using a mid-bass "flat" horn as the one of the DIYSOUNDGROUP made for Titan LX
??? (I learn a lot here also with your readings)
- Also it's listening room is a perfect square 5x5 m (difficult for the sound and high spl because the room modes : my experience & understanding, maybe a part of his problem to find the good mid-bass with the planar also : 5 m length is short : the two walls and also the same modes with the lateral walls)
- I assume the pattern of the horn is simplier to match to an other horn, and the planar with an other planar or a classic driver despite the vertical dispersion of a long planar for a concentric driver !
My question was open but I'm not sure the Horn is needed in Lewinski environment + he uses DSP and active filtering, so 100 dB is enough even for a 300B.
WHat Lewinski learn to us : it is hard to match a planar so low. Making a sota mid-bass area towards the high mid is even more difficult. Lack of space/foot print is a challenge. There is also a chance than the needs has growned with the work and the many tests (=experience).
All those items are sympathetic to me even if the evidence shows a more classic design could be the solution. But again the trade offs (we have all, and the new one is also the 5x5 m listening room)
If I'm wrong Lewinski will add to my words for further precision if needed.
So my idea is one of the item has to be moved : the driver (TPL 150 with or w/o Horn) or the XO point despite the force of the Beyma's is its low dpt.
And because the foot print I thinked a horn less or more big (I have not a clue here) could be a solution for the upper bass to the Beyma TPL 150. More than a 2" compression driver I was thinking to what Weltersys or xrq971 members did with musical 2.5" cone driver which can match the 100 db in a not so long horn : Vifa Tc(g)9, Scan Speak 10F/8044, etc. despite their Fs at 100 Hz they can be cuted at 200 Hz in a horn without distorsion due to the horn spl renforcment and less cone mvts (and I have also a SS 10F/8044 ; )
I'm sure a more serious mid bass horn à la Dr Edgard or Tractrix like VolvoTreter or direct horn à la Carpenter member is the solution, as the Pooh's, but again the foot print.
I also thought of a 1.5" horn like the famous 18's sound XT1064 bu the narrow 50x40° seems not good to match the TPL, even Horned ! But again this horn is said to be good and not so big and ready made (on shelf).
So my asking was to help Lewinski is his intense reflexion.
- XO between 1500 and 2100 Hz (which horn) ?
Moving this XO at upper Frequency (which horn) and as ScottL pointed out : beter no - - XO between 200 Hz to 8 000 Hz minimum (and a planar is good above)
- Give up the TPL 150
- using a mid-bass "flat" horn as the one of the DIYSOUNDGROUP made for Titan LX
??? (I learn a lot here also with your readings)
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this is a speaker I've built using TPL-150H and 12P80ND-V2 and a 15" custom made woofer made by Beyma that it's called BD15 (actually it's a Beyma 15Mi100 with under-hung coil and ND magnet). I used a 6-channel preamplifier and three stereo power amplifiers based on Hypex NC500. the preamplier is a Hypex DLCP indeed. all made by BrunelAudio.com (chassis made of a single piece of 7075 aluminum billet and price is unbeatable). I LP crossed the woofer at 220hz. midrage from ~210hz up to 1750hz. tweeter from 1720hz upward. all LR4. I'm still tweaking the frequency response and crossing points. is sounds good from the first moment I powered them up. am I satisfied with the project? yes for now but I'm gonna build a curved cabinet as a substitute.
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this is a speaker I've built using TPL-150H and 12P80ND-V2 and a 15" custom made woofer made by Beyma that it's called BD15 (actually it's a Beyma 15Mi100 with under-hung coil and ND magnet). I used a 6-channel preamplifier and three stereo power amplifiers based on Hypex NC500. the preamplier is a Hypex DLCP indeed. all made by BrunelAudio.com (chassis made of a single piece of 7075 aluminum billet and price is unbeatable). I LP crossed the woofer at 220hz. midrage from ~210hz up to 1750hz. tweeter from 1720hz upward. all LR4. I'm still tweaking the frequency response and crossing points. is sounds good from the first moment I powered them up. am I satisfied with the project? yes for now but I'm gonna build a curved cabinet as a substitute.
Impressive !!!
Hey Dave, are you familiar with the term, "D-Tube" ? It was offered some large number of years ago, and was basically a sono-tube cut in half on the vertical with a baffle placed on the flat sides. The top and bottom were parallel, such that 1/2 wavelengths had to be suppressed by copious quantities of acoustic, but there were no standing waves in the horizontal plane. The curves only need minimal damping, but the front baffle board would need to be built like a tank. Top and bottom plates, too.
- Lewinski is making his project with the H, but some says the TPL sounds better without.
- Also it's listening room is a perfect square 5x5 m (difficult for the sound and high spl because the room modes : my experience & understanding, maybe a part of his problem to find the good mid-bass with the planar also : 5 m length is short : the two walls and also the same modes with the lateral walls)
- I assume the pattern of the horn is simplier to match to an other horn, and the planar with an other planar or a classic driver despite the vertical dispersion of a long planar for a concentric driver !
My question was open but I'm not sure the Horn is needed in Lewinski environment + he uses DSP and active filtering, so 100 dB is enough even for a 300B.
WHat Lewinski learn to us : it is hard to match a planar so low. Making a sota mid-bass area towards the high mid is even more difficult. Lack of space/foot print is a challenge. There is also a chance than the needs has growned with the work and the many tests (=experience).
All those items are sympathetic to me even if the evidence shows a more classic design could be the solution. But again the trade offs (we have all, and the new one is also the 5x5 m listening room)
If I'm wrong Lewinski will add to my words for further precision if needed.
So my idea is one of the item has to be moved : the driver (TPL 150 with or w/o Horn) or the XO point despite the force of the Beyma's is its low dpt.
And because the foot print I thinked a horn less or more big (I have not a clue here) could be a solution for the upper bass to the Beyma TPL 150. More than a 2" compression driver I was thinking to what Weltersys or xrq971 members did with musical 2.5" cone driver which can match the 100 db in a not so long horn : Vifa Tc(g)9, Scan Speak 10F/8044, etc. despite their Fs at 100 Hz they can be cuted at 200 Hz in a horn without distorsion due to the horn spl renforcment and less cone mvts (and I have also a SS 10F/8044 ; )
I'm sure a more serious mid bass horn à la Dr Edgard or Tractrix like VolvoTreter or direct horn à la Carpenter member is the solution, as the Pooh's, but again the foot print.
I also thought of a 1.5" horn like the famous 18's sound XT1064 bu the narrow 50x40° seems not good to match the TPL, even Horned ! But again this horn is said to be good and not so big and ready made (on shelf).
So my asking was to help Lewinski is his intense reflexion.
- XO between 1500 and 2100 Hz (which horn) ?
Moving this XO at upper Frequency (which horn) and as ScottL pointed out : beter no - - XO between 200 Hz to 8 000 Hz minimum (and a planar is good above)
- Give up the TPL 150
- using a mid-bass "flat" horn as the one of the DIYSOUNDGROUP made for Titan LX
??? (I learn a lot here also with your readings)
There are many paths to audio nirvana. Within this thread, it has been established that the TPL-150 is the tweeter of choice. Now the only question becomes which mid range to match ? It seems to me that the original choice was the Beyma 12P80/ND which Angelo found great pleasure in. I don't see why this would not still be one of the top choices to match this tweeter. Take it as low as it's comfortable with and according to your own tastes (somewhere in the 100 ish Hz range) and add a dedicated sub.
- Lewinski is making his project with the H, but some says the TPL sounds better without.
- Also it's listening room is a perfect square 5x5 m (difficult for the sound and high spl because the room modes : my experience & understanding, maybe a part of his problem to find the good mid-bass with the planar also : 5 m length is short : the two walls and also the same modes with the lateral walls)
- I assume the pattern of the horn is simplier to match to an other horn, and the planar with an other planar or a classic driver despite the vertical dispersion of a long planar for a concentric driver !
My question was open but I'm not sure the Horn is needed in Lewinski environment + he uses DSP and active filtering, so 100 dB is enough even for a 300B.
WHat Lewinski learn to us : it is hard to match a planar so low. Making a sota mid-bass area towards the high mid is even more difficult. Lack of space/foot print is a challenge. There is also a chance than the needs has growned with the work and the many tests (=experience).
All those items are sympathetic to me even if the evidence shows a more classic design could be the solution. But again the trade offs (we have all, and the new one is also the 5x5 m listening room)
If I'm wrong Lewinski will add to my words for further precision if needed.
So my idea is one of the item has to be moved : the driver (TPL 150 with or w/o Horn) or the XO point despite the force of the Beyma's is its low dpt.
And because the foot print I thinked a horn less or more big (I have not a clue here) could be a solution for the upper bass to the Beyma TPL 150. More than a 2" compression driver I was thinking to what Weltersys or xrq971 members did with musical 2.5" cone driver which can match the 100 db in a not so long horn : Vifa Tc(g)9, Scan Speak 10F/8044, etc. despite their Fs at 100 Hz they can be cuted at 200 Hz in a horn without distorsion due to the horn spl renforcment and less cone mvts (and I have also a SS 10F/8044 ; )
I'm sure a more serious mid bass horn à la Dr Edgard or Tractrix like VolvoTreter or direct horn à la Carpenter member is the solution, as the Pooh's, but again the foot print.
I also thought of a 1.5" horn like the famous 18's sound XT1064 bu the narrow 50x40° seems not good to match the TPL, even Horned ! But again this horn is said to be good and not so big and ready made (on shelf).
So my asking was to help Lewinski is his intense reflexion.
- XO between 1500 and 2100 Hz (which horn) ?
Moving this XO at upper Frequency (which horn) and as ScottL pointed out : beter no - - XO between 200 Hz to 8 000 Hz minimum (and a planar is good above)
- Give up the TPL 150
- using a mid-bass "flat" horn as the one of the DIYSOUNDGROUP made for Titan LX
??? (I learn a lot here also with your readings)
Eldam,
Thanks for the kind words, but I think you are overvaluing my experience
I am, however, rather comprehensive at studying things and this has been an area of interest. Too bad these drivers and amps aren't easily available around here. So there is more analysis that real world experience.
My previous focus was on room acoustics, and have come to conclude my room is not that bad, really. Explaining it requires more than just dropping dimensions, which is a quick way of referencing. While the room is indeed about 5 x 5m and the front and back walls are brick, one side wall is really a floor to ceiling and wall to wall sliding window (which acts as a bass trap) and the other "wall" is in reality a 5m sliding door made of heavy DIY acoustic panels opening to another 5x5m dining room. So the acoustic panels also act as bass traps. All first reflection points treated, except the ceiling (for now
). I've done a fair amount of measuring the room and room treatments.So the easy way out is just use a beefier amp and use whatever midrange and force it into what I need. Yet I hear so much about SET midrange and how well SET works with the right speakers, that to me it boils down to proper design. Sure, it's more complicated and options reduce pretty fast.
I do believe tradeoffs need to be made, such as trading impact vs lobbing if you go for a larger size midrange. I still have to get to a final design for the horn with the 5" cone and live with it for a while. But that cone in particular doesn't look promising in xo at 2kHz. Maybe another, or a smaller one. Or a 2" compression driver. Or go completely different direction and use an 8" fullrange driver as midrange.
For the midbass I keep being attracted by the impact described with midbass horns. Yet they can hardly get to 80-100Hz unless I make them too large for my living room. So for now the dual 10" per side in sealed boxes are still the leading case. Plus sealed subs, of which I might need more than the 2 I have today.
Right now what I need to get is the additional SET and see how things work. Easier said than done, considering my location. Working on it, though. Meanwhile I keep studying options
BTW, I'm looking at a 45-tube SET rated at 2W vs 8W for 300B
And what I learnt is I want to keep the tube below 50% of rated power to keep distortion very low. So 1W to work with!! Great learning journey!
Hi,
I don't understand tubes but why not a 300B in a 2a3 topology configuration if only 2 or 3 w are needed?
Oh i understand exactly what you say about mid-bass, if little ensembles without too low energy was my choice I certainly choose an ESL : Quad, ML... far aabove my wallet though !
But voila, re listened the Ravel's Boléro today... hummm liten to the last minute in a good live reccording.... we need fast moving air, powerfull moving air, quantity of moving air... and still fast transcient ! I know the answer, you know the answer, they know the answer (big Sd and even better horn to help the transcient !)... My preference goes to sealed with classic speaker but no clue about horns, but passive listenings (never made one). For instance the mid of ScottL which has an open back gives him satisfaction... a 15" like the strong EV of Volvotreter despite the 100-500 range gives him satisfaction ! Each time there is an air impedance adaptation made by a horn with a cone which moves less than when radiating directly on a front bafle !
So the challenge Worth the efforts... but yes not everybody can live with or even find a K-402 horn !
Hey me too I have one of the front wall made of Windows bay : agree : help a lot in the bass. treble reflection are tamed to fight the large glass areas . I have similar width, but longer length (lot of space behind the sweet listening spot : it helps according my experience) ! Only 2.8 meters celling; I surmise you have more in your country if you leave in a classic flat or house !)
Well let see where the TPL 150 guide you
I don't understand tubes but why not a 300B in a 2a3 topology configuration if only 2 or 3 w are needed?
Oh i understand exactly what you say about mid-bass, if little ensembles without too low energy was my choice I certainly choose an ESL : Quad, ML... far aabove my wallet though !
But voila, re listened the Ravel's Boléro today... hummm liten to the last minute in a good live reccording
.... we need fast moving air, powerfull moving air, quantity of moving air... and still fast transcient ! I know the answer, you know the answer, they know the answer (big Sd and even better horn to help the transcient !)... My preference goes to sealed with classic speaker but no clue about horns, but passive listenings (never made one). For instance the mid of ScottL which has an open back gives him satisfaction... a 15" like the strong EV of Volvotreter despite the 100-500 range gives him satisfaction ! Each time there is an air impedance adaptation made by a horn with a cone which moves less than when radiating directly on a front bafle !So the challenge Worth the efforts
... but yes not everybody can live with or even find a K-402 horn !Hey me too I have one of the front wall made of Windows bay : agree : help a lot in the bass. treble reflection are tamed to fight the large glass areas . I have similar width, but longer length (lot of space behind the sweet listening spot : it helps according my experience) ! Only 2.8 meters celling; I surmise you have more in your country if you leave in a classic flat or house !)
Well let see where the TPL 150 guide you