hi Peter,
that observation seems a littlebig strange to me.
The Fane Studio 8m as direct radiator starts to roll off well beyond 5khz :
and your conical horn acts less as natural lowpass filter, than mine.
I dicovered actually the oposit, after making measurements. The lower midrange horn had strong output well beyond 2khz, thats why i lowpass it now with 12db filter. And even so, it still is linear up to 2khz:
btw. i thought you were still using the P.Audio 5" cone speaker. Is the Fane better ?
Hi Angelo,
The Fane Studio 8M does indeed have output up to 5k (see attachment), but the conical horn does not load the driver as effectively as 'real' horn (e.g., a horn with a exponential, tractrix, or LeCleach flare). Thus, there is output above 1k, but it is attenuated by app. 5 dB or so, whereas the respons is fairly flat in the 180-1k range (within +-3dB).
At the moment I use the Fane instead of the P.Audio. The P.Audio is more 'crisp' in the upper range, but also needs eq in order to be flat. So, if I can get away with a crossover point around 1k, then the Fane will be easier to live with - also because it loads lower.
Best regards
Peter
Hi Pieter,
Although a conical horn/waveguide beyond any doubt loads less effectively than 'real' horns, they still load the driver better than no waveguide at all. The conical horns I have in the pipeline are fairly large (they are conical approximations of an exponential horn with an Fc= 350 Hz). Whether the Beyma will load below 1,000 Hz in any horn/waveguide I don't know - but I sure hope to find out! The Beyma TPL may also be restricted soundwise when used lower, but time will tell. Given the fact that Beyma recommends the driver to be used down to 1,000 hz with a 12 dB/octave filter for PA, it does not (at least not to me) seem too far out to try to use the driver for home use down to, say, 900 Hz when mounted on a much larger horn/waveguide using steeper 24dB/octave filters.
At least I would like to try it out!
Best regards
Peter
Hi Peter,
Of course it's best to try it out, with the larger waveguides the situation is different.
It is tempting to let the driver do what it can do technically, but I am curious what your findings will be for sound quality; PA is different from HiFi in that respect.
It reminds me of the well known 1 inch dome tweeters by Dynaudio, Morel and others. These can perform down to 1k5 Hz, but I never liked them that way; they sound much better to my ears when crossed over at 2k5 - 3k.
With the all Beyma MTM we just liked sound quality and driver integration best with the crossover at about 2k (TPL150 used with and without waveguide), with second order filtering.
Of course it's best to try it out, with the larger waveguides the situation is different.
It is tempting to let the driver do what it can do technically, but I am curious what your findings will be for sound quality; PA is different from HiFi in that respect.
It reminds me of the well known 1 inch dome tweeters by Dynaudio, Morel and others. These can perform down to 1k5 Hz, but I never liked them that way; they sound much better to my ears when crossed over at 2k5 - 3k.
With the all Beyma MTM we just liked sound quality and driver integration best with the crossover at about 2k (TPL150 used with and without waveguide), with second order filtering.
Back to original poster's question, I'm also using Beyma TPL150H for a high output 3 way I'm currently building.
Originally my drivers were...
Beyma TPL150H - AMT tweeter
18 Sound 8NMA610 - 8 inch midrange with 3 inch voice coil
Beyma 15P80ND - 15 inch woofer with 4 inch voice coil
I was disappointed with the lack of deep low end from the Beyma 15P80ND and have since upgraded to Faital Pro 15XL1400 woofers instead, which have more output down into the 20Hz range. Another really great 15 inch contender is the BMS 15N850V2, but the ultimate would be a PASUB Model 390 which is sadly no longer available it seems.
I think the Beyma TPL150H is a bit short on output to keep up with the other drivers and would work better in pairs, or just wait till next year when Beyma release the upgraded version of TPL model. Ideally I would have liked to use Alcons Audio ribbon drivers, but these are also not available separately, although there are some other nice high output ribbon / AMT contenders from MBHO, Mundorf and Stage Accompany.
Originally my drivers were...
Beyma TPL150H - AMT tweeter
18 Sound 8NMA610 - 8 inch midrange with 3 inch voice coil
Beyma 15P80ND - 15 inch woofer with 4 inch voice coil
I was disappointed with the lack of deep low end from the Beyma 15P80ND and have since upgraded to Faital Pro 15XL1400 woofers instead, which have more output down into the 20Hz range. Another really great 15 inch contender is the BMS 15N850V2, but the ultimate would be a PASUB Model 390 which is sadly no longer available it seems.
I think the Beyma TPL150H is a bit short on output to keep up with the other drivers and would work better in pairs, or just wait till next year when Beyma release the upgraded version of TPL model. Ideally I would have liked to use Alcons Audio ribbon drivers, but these are also not available separately, although there are some other nice high output ribbon / AMT contenders from MBHO, Mundorf and Stage Accompany.
Disappointed?
Beyma datasheets are pretty correct; that woofer has Fs of 54 Hz, so you could have expected it to be a bit bass shy. That's the price to pay for very high efficiency.
I have the same experience with non horn loaded TPL. It sounded best to all of us at the studio when used above 2KHz. I tend to look at the manufactures recommended xover point and go up one octave. Usually much clearer and less strained sounding. Maybe the horn version has enough low end boost to help out with a lower xover point.
Greg
Actually, I discovered that Beyma have altered the published specs!!!
15P80ND was originally advertised as Fs = 35Hz from their earlier Beyma datasheet Number 028, and in Beyma's website and printed literature. Then sometime around summer 2011, the published Beyma spec suddenly switched to 54Hz as you correctly observe from the current datasheet Number 109. So maybe 35Hz was a misprint and 54Hz is the correct value???
When I researched and shortlisted this driver in the first place, it was largely using the old datasheet, and when I purchased them in August 2011, the dealer already had existing stock in their warehouse so they may even be drivers manufactured before the specs changed. I guess I'm not 100% certain which datasheet applies to the drivers I own, or whether there ever were any real world differences - ie. I don't know if the actual manufactured driver hardware has changed in design and performance compared to previous product, or whether the newest datasheets are merely corrections and revisions to the published figures for the same identical product all along.
I'm fairly certain the original datasheet had misprints - for instance, the net weight was quoted before as 3.6kg (ridiculously light!) and now corrected to 6kg. They've also amended many other T-S parameters for this driver, including slight reduction to quoted BL factor, slight increase to Mms, big increase to Fs, and large changes to Vas, Cms, Rms, and smaller but significant changes to Le, Qts, Qms, and Qes.
In any case the WinISD simulations I ran on the original T-S parameters and even Beyma's most recent published T-S parameters as well so not seem to be met very well by the actual product in real life, and there's also a hell of a lot of "coughing" air noise coming from the vent at the back of the top plate even in normal use, which I find objectionable. I've gone off Beyma's design a bit to be honest, and I don't entirely trust their spec sheets now either. I also found the TPL150/H wasn't anywhere near as flat as the published graphs would lead you to believe.
The 15P80ND is still a high quality woofer, but I'm happy to pay more money for something even better, such as the BMS or indeed the Faital Pro model I ended up choosing to buy, because I love low bass, dude!
Hi Meister_gue and Stig Erik,
Well, I haven't pushed them to the limit myself either, because I'm still only in the cabinet building stage, but from theoretical calculations on these 3 way drivers I'm using, and assuming I've got everything tri-amped with at least the full rated AES nominal power available to each driver from my various amplifiers....
Beyma TPL150/H rated 80Wrms @ 102dBspl/W
Calculated max SPL = 102 + 10 log 80 = 121.0dBSPL continuous in theory
18 Sound 8NMA610 rated 400Wrms @ 104dBspl/W
Calculated max SPL = 104 + 10 log 400 = 130.0dBspl continuous in theory
Faital Pro 15XL1400 rated 1400Wrms @ 97dBspl/W
Calculated max SPL = 97 + 10 log 1400 = 128.5dBspl continuous in theory
It looks like the tweeter is a bit short on output compared to the other drivers, but obviously I'm not gonna listen to pink noise all day and night
so hopefully it will be fine with normal music spectral content. Of course the woofer's sensitivity in the 20Hz - 200Hz range will be far less than 97dB/W so in fact that is possibly the weakest link in the chain with typical music program. I forgot to say I also have two 21 inch subwoofers already, which can run alongside this. But in any case, I still intend for this new 3-way box to have as much low bass as it's possible to extract from it, when working as a standalone full-range cabinet in its own right too.I'm surprised you don't find a two-way 15 inch + tweeter cab slightly harsh anyway! Depends what you define as harsh to your ears where you draw the line. Obviously not gross distortion for sure, but even slightly grainy / any discernable colouration is objectionable to most audiophile listeners. For PA use, perhaps, but my agenda for PA reproduction is audiophile quality, and my agenda for audiophile listening is at PA volume levels!
I personally am finding the horn loaded TPL slightly harsh (to my ears) even in my prototype 3 way mock-up, and I'm crossing over at 2.25kHz with 18dB/oct Butterworth slope to a dedicated midrange driver, before going anywhere near the 15 inch woofer until 250 - 350Hz range. I consider a 3-way design about the minimum I can get away with for transparency. This 3-way Beyma TPL prototype is definitely not sounding nearly as smooth or transparent through the midrange and treble as my Dynaudio 4 way floorstanding closed box cabinet that I built many years ago and I've got them standing side by side for A/B comparison.
On the 3-way setup, if I just mute the midrange driver signal and edit the crossover parameters to get a straight 2-way output between the Beyma 15P80ND woofer (I still have them) and the TPL150H tweeter there's no way I can approach what I would call smooth, uncoloured sound from just this pairing. It needs a midrange driver to stand a chance here.
Well I checked and yes these datasheets are different.
So it is good to be alert here; I know of the 8M70V2 which is exactly the same as the older 8M60 (just a different chassis) but also show differences in the datasheets.
We use the SM212 in a very low tuned 130 liters bass reflex and that works very well; no need for additional sub bass even with HT; that woofer is difficult to beat in price/quality terms.
Maybe you could improve things by using a mini DSP.
So it is good to be alert here; I know of the 8M70V2 which is exactly the same as the older 8M60 (just a different chassis) but also show differences in the datasheets.
We use the SM212 in a very low tuned 130 liters bass reflex and that works very well; no need for additional sub bass even with HT; that woofer is difficult to beat in price/quality terms.
Maybe you could improve things by using a mini DSP.
Agree!
My friend prefers the horn loaded tweeter; I prefer it without because I hear a bit coloration with the horn.
We cross at 2k, and the MTM is open baffle.
Woofer up to about 150 Hz.
By the way, when HiFi is your priority at maybe lower than PA levels, try OPEN BAFFLE
With open baffle you fully exploit the quality of the TPL150 (the back plate is easy to remove so you have a pure dipole).
Once you hear a good quality open baffle mid and high, you will not go back to boxed speakers.
Open baffle bass is another subject; very difficult to accomplish within normal dimensions.
Because it is not!
It took me quite long to get it right, but it sounds like a very very loud hifi. It is not grainy or has any colouration, and gives super clear midrange at any level. If there would be a problem in the midrange, than I can not hear it, and loads of people, who really like the system can not hear it. Most of them are musicians or doing studio work (mastering, recording), so I really respect their verdict.I know, you are not going to belive me, and as I'm pretty sure, you are not from Austria, that you can listen to the system...
When the TPL is crossed over and EQd right, it should not sound harsh, and should give you super clean and very dynamic highs.
It has the 104dB@1kHz and upwards, so when you are using it from 300Hz or 400Hz upwards, you get a 10dB lower sensitivity in your application.
That is good to know so we can place your opinion in a good perspective...
Yeah! On the PA versus domestic hi-fi debate, I say maximum audiophile quality is the ideal goal for both camps to aspire to.
I earn my income from being a professional musician, so I'm regularly using loudspeakers for live performance and live rehearsals both at home and out at gigs, and I enjoy listening to most music at realistic live levels. If a speaker can't do this seriously, I have little use for it.
For me, a "PA" speaker basically just means something that is portable enough to take to a gig in the back of my estate car, and to some extent practical and roadworthy - eg. may include (if needed) built-in tripod pole mounts, carry handles, protective grilles (maybe removable), castor wheels on the subwoofer (as it weighs 45kg and its a long haul from the car park to the stage usually) but none of these pragmatic accoutrements would stop me using any "PA" speakers at home for "hi-fi" listening - in fact these accoutrements are frequently helpful - if that given speaker indeed delivers the sonic goods from an audiophile listener's perspective. Obviously aesthetics and nice woodgrain cabinets become important for high-end domestic speakers and WAF, but the audiophile market includes excellent sounding stuff that is far to big and heavy to transport (eg. my custom 4 way Dynaudio floorstanders are way too big) and or totally impractical or fragile to take on the road regularly, even if you have a large van. So they are not "PA" speakers, but "HTSAH" speakers. (*Have To Stay At Home!)
If I could invite the whole audience round to my house, I would just use my Dynaudios for live performances, but if I have to transport the speakers out to a venue they must be "PA" types not "HTSAT" types, but I see no performance distinction between these types regarding audiophile design goals of maximum linearity, lack of colouration, etc., as I use the same ears and critical perfectionist audiophile viewpoint when I listen to PA systems at a gig, or hi-fi reproduction at home.
I actually did two gigs in Austria (in Faaker See, Carinthia) only just over month ago! But you're right, I am English, in fact.
However, I can today listen to a 2-way system with the Beyma TPL150 and the Beyma 15P80ND, because I own them myself and have them set up and wired in at my home right now. Obviously not identical to your cabinet design, but the very same two drivers nonetheless. I've tried in vain to get a crossover slope or EQ setting that makes them work as a 2-way pairing with audiophile transparency, and if you have succeeded I take my hat off to you! Perhaps you could say exactly what crossover frequencies, slopes, relative gain levels and EQ settings you are using to achieve this? If you have removed the back cover to run the TPL as a dipole, then fair enough, you may get results I cannot immediately match, but I'd be interested to try it your way, with the basic stock drivers, if you'd let me know the magic figures to dial in....?????
It's a pity you can't listen to my systems side by side here in England, by the same token. There's transparency, and then there's transparency.
I know that some professional studio monitors do use a 15 inch + tweeter 2-way designs, such as Meyer Sound and Reflexion Arts, but many more use 4 way, or 4 way augmented by 21 inch subs as I am running. It sounds very good, and I haven't been able to match that transparency with these two Beyma drivers so far, or even with the 18 Sound midrange in there as well.
You're quite correct about the lower sensitivity of the midrange around 300Hz range, but don't forget the woofer is also running in the same freq range through the crossover so they sum together and the combined output is +6dB louder at the crossover frequency. I have also tried crossover somewhat higher, eg. 450Hz - 700Hz which will give more power headroom, but find the sound quality in this range far better though the 8 inch midrange than the 15 inch woofer, so I'm tending to keep that crossover as low as possible for now, and let the woofer handle just bass.
FYI: The Faital Pro 15XL1400 woofer does not have such clear extended midrange as the Beyma 15P80ND but I'm not wishing to use either for midrange reproduction. I just want them to excel for deep bass up to maybe 300Hz - 400Hz maximum, so the Faital wins.
When the Tang Band W8-1808 8" full range speaker was $140 I drank enough wine to cut off the whizzer cone in order to turn it into a true midbass to mate with my DIY ribbon tweeters. The W8-1808 was the first 8" that came close to my wish list parameters from playing with a T/S calculator tool.
Wish List:
1) flat frequency response from 80Hz to 1,400Hz
2) 94-96db/watt efficiency
3) no ugly break-up modes
REQUIRES:
a) ~9 grams moving mass
b) which is only possible with underhung motor and
c) light full range state of the art paper cone
d) and well dampened suspension capable of 5mm Xmax
e) and phase plug to reduce beaming at 1,400 Hz
f) a large, odd shaped enclosure with extensive rear wave dampening material and resonance breaking cross-bracing.
A sealed back midrange with a sharply rising SPL like the 18 Sound 8NM610 would not be my dream midrange.
Wish List:
1) flat frequency response from 80Hz to 1,400Hz
2) 94-96db/watt efficiency
3) no ugly break-up modes
REQUIRES:
a) ~9 grams moving mass
b) which is only possible with underhung motor and
c) light full range state of the art paper cone
d) and well dampened suspension capable of 5mm Xmax
e) and phase plug to reduce beaming at 1,400 Hz
f) a large, odd shaped enclosure with extensive rear wave dampening material and resonance breaking cross-bracing.
A sealed back midrange with a sharply rising SPL like the 18 Sound 8NM610 would not be my dream midrange.
