AllenB
I really like this topic and curious about one question.
First pages are covered first order filters and partly touches the second order filters for woofers at least.
But nothing said about mixing of different order crossovers.
I read some articles for car audio systems where used second order filter for woofer\low pass part of crossover while first order for tweeters. ( or vise versa for woofer tweeter )
What are drawbacks here in such designs?
I really like this topic and curious about one question.
First pages are covered first order filters and partly touches the second order filters for woofers at least.
But nothing said about mixing of different order crossovers.
I read some articles for car audio systems where used second order filter for woofer\low pass part of crossover while first order for tweeters. ( or vise versa for woofer tweeter )
What are drawbacks here in such designs?
An important reason why first order for woofer and second order for tweeter is a good combination, is because when you plot acoustic phase vs frequency, the plot winds faster for a higher order rolloff.
Now, the sound from the woofer usually arrives later than the tweeter. Maybe an easy way to explain this is that the woofer voice coil is usually set back a couple or a few cm from the tweeter because the woofer is larger and goes further back into the cabinet. This has the effect of winding the phase faster vs frequency.
So, it's about making them meet up better in the end.
Now, the sound from the woofer usually arrives later than the tweeter. Maybe an easy way to explain this is that the woofer voice coil is usually set back a couple or a few cm from the tweeter because the woofer is larger and goes further back into the cabinet. This has the effect of winding the phase faster vs frequency.
So, it's about making them meet up better in the end.
Some discussion split to this thread. 
Mr. AllenB. I have entered this thread looking for information on crossover networks.
My interest arose after I met Paul Carmody's projects, the Overnight Sensations.
From there I read about building speakers and their crossover networks.
I have learned things that I have never imagined, such as the influence of the size of the deflector and the position of the driver on the sound; the rupture of the cone; baffle pass, etc., etc.
I am about to build the Overnight Sensation TMM tower since I have heard good reviews for its price.
Now comes the question: I have an audio system composed among other components an ampli Marantz PM6006 and speakers B&W DM602.
I found the diagram of your crossover network and I see that it is very simple.
First order for woofer and third order for tweeter.
It has no Zobel network to tame the woofer's impedance; The tweeter also does not improve its impedance and is connected positive in the positive.
The question is whether the drivers are so good that they do not need those elements or simply ignored them for savings.
Would it be good to add them or would it be harmful?
Greetings Jose from Montevideo, Uruguay
My interest arose after I met Paul Carmody's projects, the Overnight Sensations.
From there I read about building speakers and their crossover networks.
I have learned things that I have never imagined, such as the influence of the size of the deflector and the position of the driver on the sound; the rupture of the cone; baffle pass, etc., etc.
I am about to build the Overnight Sensation TMM tower since I have heard good reviews for its price.
Now comes the question: I have an audio system composed among other components an ampli Marantz PM6006 and speakers B&W DM602.
I found the diagram of your crossover network and I see that it is very simple.
First order for woofer and third order for tweeter.
It has no Zobel network to tame the woofer's impedance; The tweeter also does not improve its impedance and is connected positive in the positive.
The question is whether the drivers are so good that they do not need those elements or simply ignored them for savings.
Would it be good to add them or would it be harmful?
Greetings Jose from Montevideo, Uruguay
AllenB I was referring to the B&W DM602 crossover.Looking at Paul's crossover, and comparing it with that of the Bowers and Wilkins DM 602 (it cost me $ 700 in 1997), I see. that Paul's design is superior.
My question is whether to add the Zobel network to the B&W DM602 crossover and also reverse the polarity of the tweeter
My question is whether to add the Zobel network to the B&W DM602 crossover and also reverse the polarity of the tweeter
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If you flip the polarity of the tweeter now, you will probably cause a problem. However if you make a larger change, you might then need to flip the polarity to fix it.
Can you make an improvement? Maybe. I know that B&W sometimes likes to make speakers for people that like a simple crossover. This might mean they used drivers with predictable output. I don't know if this speaker is like that.
If you want to experiment, one way is to listen to the woofer on its own, does it sound smooth at the higher frequencies. You could add to the woofer crossover, slowly. Then aim to fill the midrange hole you are creating either by extending the tweeter response, or by adjusting its level.
Can you make an improvement? Maybe. I know that B&W sometimes likes to make speakers for people that like a simple crossover. This might mean they used drivers with predictable output. I don't know if this speaker is like that.
If you want to experiment, one way is to listen to the woofer on its own, does it sound smooth at the higher frequencies. You could add to the woofer crossover, slowly. Then aim to fill the midrange hole you are creating either by extending the tweeter response, or by adjusting its level.
Hy AllenB,
Thank you for all of your help and effort that you put into this topic...
Can you help me a bit, im newbie and confused with something... If i pick up a coaxial ie. Seas H1602-04/06 L12RE/XFC or something similar like KEF speakers, how would you set up a crossover? I mean, it's one driver for whole speaker, so how would you shape the crossover?
thanks !
Thank you for all of your help and effort that you put into this topic...
Can you help me a bit, im newbie and confused with something... If i pick up a coaxial ie. Seas H1602-04/06 L12RE/XFC or something similar like KEF speakers, how would you set up a crossover? I mean, it's one driver for whole speaker, so how would you shape the crossover?
thanks !
Thank you dlavallee and molnyi.
At this level the co-axial speaker is going to be the same.
Normally, having the drivers in a separate location can change the way they interact with the floor and ceiling. While this is not usually a large change, with a no measurement type crossover you compensate for what you hear.
One thing though, check whether the tweeter is a compression type or a dome. Read the manufacturer specifications for clues on how and where to start the cross.
At this level the co-axial speaker is going to be the same.
Normally, having the drivers in a separate location can change the way they interact with the floor and ceiling. While this is not usually a large change, with a no measurement type crossover you compensate for what you hear.
One thing though, check whether the tweeter is a compression type or a dome. Read the manufacturer specifications for clues on how and where to start the cross.
Big thanks!
Hi Allen, just wanted to let you know that I have built a DIY speaker and crossover, and this will not be possible if I did not read your excellent guide here.
This is my first time and I am very happy with the result.
I thought you should know, that there are plenty DIYers out there like me, who managed to overcome and took the first step, the "black art" in designing crossover with your help.
Kudo Allen, much appreciated with your work.
Regards,
Chandra
Hi Allen, just wanted to let you know that I have built a DIY speaker and crossover, and this will not be possible if I did not read your excellent guide here.
This is my first time and I am very happy with the result.
I thought you should know, that there are plenty DIYers out there like me, who managed to overcome and took the first step, the "black art" in designing crossover with your help.
Kudo Allen, much appreciated with your work.
Regards,
Chandra
AllenB you are a genius for putting this together!
I have been trying to find a crossover building forum that makes it simple for noobs like me to understand. While this is not my first DIY project it is quite ambitious, I am trying to build high power speakers for my home theatre using car components (I know it is not ideal but I am limited with what I can get in Dubai).
Before I start working out the math and components I wanted to check with you or anyone that can help on the selected crossover points along with component details in pictures attached.
Slide3 — ImgBB
I am not planning to build crossover via measurement.
Please let me know if the crossover points highlighted in red work?
Thank you in advance for your support!
I have been trying to find a crossover building forum that makes it simple for noobs like me to understand. While this is not my first DIY project it is quite ambitious, I am trying to build high power speakers for my home theatre using car components (I know it is not ideal but I am limited with what I can get in Dubai).
Before I start working out the math and components I wanted to check with you or anyone that can help on the selected crossover points along with component details in pictures attached.
Slide3 — ImgBB
I am not planning to build crossover via measurement.
Please let me know if the crossover points highlighted in red work?
Thank you in advance for your support!
Here is the picture of components and the woofer has TS parameters also not that it will help since this is non-measurement project.
Slide2 — ImgBB
Slide2 — ImgBB
Thanks to everyone for your kind comments.
faridj, I imagine your lower cross will not be a problem. By lowering the midrange level a little using resistors, you could achieve some baffle compensation. This is one of the niceties of happening to have a crossover frequency in just the right spot. In addition, these resistors (eg you could use an L-pad of 2 resistors) will reduce the impact of the mid drivers impedance peak down at its resonance.
The upper cross is a little less obvious. An 8" driver is narrowing its directivity near 2kHz, and cone breakup near 3kHz. Your tweeter would probably suit a lower cross but it depends on how it handles the power.
Maybe it will work well, or maybe you will find that the tweeter doesn't like to be crossed too low.. and when you try higher you find that the crossover doesn't want to blend. If this happens you might want to try a smaller midrange.
faridj, I imagine your lower cross will not be a problem. By lowering the midrange level a little using resistors, you could achieve some baffle compensation. This is one of the niceties of happening to have a crossover frequency in just the right spot. In addition, these resistors (eg you could use an L-pad of 2 resistors) will reduce the impact of the mid drivers impedance peak down at its resonance.
The upper cross is a little less obvious. An 8" driver is narrowing its directivity near 2kHz, and cone breakup near 3kHz. Your tweeter would probably suit a lower cross but it depends on how it handles the power.
Maybe it will work well, or maybe you will find that the tweeter doesn't like to be crossed too low.. and when you try higher you find that the crossover doesn't want to blend. If this happens you might want to try a smaller midrange.
Hello AllenB thank you for the valuable feedback, well received.
I have made the following changes:
Tweeter
- Crossover Point: 4KHz - 20KHz
- Previously 3KHz - 20KHz
Midrange
- Moved from an 8" to 6.5"
- Details attached in image the sensitivity is less, trust this is not an issue?
- Crossover Point: 300Hz - 5KHz
Woofer
- Crossover Point: 30Hz - 500Hz
- Ok
Please let me know if the above will work well with the setup?
I have made the following changes:
Tweeter
- Crossover Point: 4KHz - 20KHz
- Previously 3KHz - 20KHz
Midrange
- Moved from an 8" to 6.5"
- Details attached in image the sensitivity is less, trust this is not an issue?
- Crossover Point: 300Hz - 5KHz
Woofer
- Crossover Point: 30Hz - 500Hz
- Ok
Please let me know if the above will work well with the setup?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
AllenB here are the TS Parameters for the DS18 PRO-X6.4BM (6.5 Midrange alternative)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.