Hi to all you intrepid DIY audioers out there.
Just as I thought my speaker building days were over, the need for a new loudspeaker has popped up !
Having built a few speakers over the years my current line up has not changed for quite sometime, as I am very happy with them.
They are:-
6.5" Full Range
8" 2 Way Bass Reflex
8" 2 Way Transmission Line
There were a few before these, but they are now part of my carbon footprint !
My new acquisition of a Steinberger 5 string bass guitar, has brought about the need for a new speaker (yes mono) or maybe speakers.
The 5th string on the Steinberger is normaly tuned to B zero, which is the same as the 3rd key on a regular piano, or 30.868 Hz.
I was quite pleased to find my existing speakers did quite a nice job of conveying the Steinbergers full frequency range, from the bottom end, right the way up to the shimmering harmonics disapearing off the top end of the audible spectrum.
What I wasn't pleased about, was that if I carry on playing it through my 'Hi-Fi' speakers, the cones will end up embeded in the rear wall of my listening room !
Conclusion:- New speaker/s needed.
Being an intrepid DIYer I wouldn't even dream of buying a commercial speaker unless the worlds MDF resources were about to dry up, but checking out the competition is always a good place to start.
I won't go into the gory details and the huge expense of speakers I found commercialy offered.
But needless to say I was not overly impressed by anything I found.
However, as a result of seeing what I didn't want, It quickly became apparent what I did want.
What I wanted was an 'audiophile' bass guitar speaker.
Something which would not disapoint compared to my 'Hi Fi' speakers.
Also, a fairly compact speaker which would nevertheless give a pro-audio PA speaker a run for it's money.
And a speaker that could also perhaps function as a decent sub-woofer, and potentialy integrate well with existing 'Hi Fi' speakers.
So the idea of 'The Versatile' loudspeaker is what I am aiming for.
Ah !!! 'The Versatile' loudspeaker, I hear...
Jack of all trades, and master of none, more like...
A guitar speaker without 'character', It'll never catch on mate...
Pro audio PA speaker ? Wot ? you don't need a forklift to move it...
Really ? A 'Hi Fi' speaker with an 18" driver that isn't the size of a wardrobe...
Ideas for 'The Versatile' loudspeaker spec to follow shortly...
Cheers for now
Simon
Just as I thought my speaker building days were over, the need for a new loudspeaker has popped up !
Having built a few speakers over the years my current line up has not changed for quite sometime, as I am very happy with them.
They are:-
6.5" Full Range
8" 2 Way Bass Reflex
8" 2 Way Transmission Line
There were a few before these, but they are now part of my carbon footprint !
My new acquisition of a Steinberger 5 string bass guitar, has brought about the need for a new speaker (yes mono) or maybe speakers.
The 5th string on the Steinberger is normaly tuned to B zero, which is the same as the 3rd key on a regular piano, or 30.868 Hz.
I was quite pleased to find my existing speakers did quite a nice job of conveying the Steinbergers full frequency range, from the bottom end, right the way up to the shimmering harmonics disapearing off the top end of the audible spectrum.
What I wasn't pleased about, was that if I carry on playing it through my 'Hi-Fi' speakers, the cones will end up embeded in the rear wall of my listening room !
Conclusion:- New speaker/s needed.
Being an intrepid DIYer I wouldn't even dream of buying a commercial speaker unless the worlds MDF resources were about to dry up, but checking out the competition is always a good place to start.
I won't go into the gory details and the huge expense of speakers I found commercialy offered.
But needless to say I was not overly impressed by anything I found.
However, as a result of seeing what I didn't want, It quickly became apparent what I did want.
What I wanted was an 'audiophile' bass guitar speaker.
Something which would not disapoint compared to my 'Hi Fi' speakers.
Also, a fairly compact speaker which would nevertheless give a pro-audio PA speaker a run for it's money.
And a speaker that could also perhaps function as a decent sub-woofer, and potentialy integrate well with existing 'Hi Fi' speakers.
So the idea of 'The Versatile' loudspeaker is what I am aiming for.
Ah !!! 'The Versatile' loudspeaker, I hear...
Jack of all trades, and master of none, more like...
A guitar speaker without 'character', It'll never catch on mate...
Pro audio PA speaker ? Wot ? you don't need a forklift to move it...
Really ? A 'Hi Fi' speaker with an 18" driver that isn't the size of a wardrobe...
Ideas for 'The Versatile' loudspeaker spec to follow shortly...
Cheers for now
Simon
"Start at the bottom and work your way up" - Anon.
Speaker building has always seemed to me to be a risky business.
DIY speaker builders are the stunt people of the DIY audio world !
Jumping off tall cabinets, and praying they don't land with a sobering crash.
If your latest pre-amp sounds a bit off, you can always tweek a few bits here and there, and bring it back from the abyss.
If your turntable plays a bit bad, couple o' bucks on a new cart, and your on the rails again.
A big wooden box all glued up with holes cut in it, and expensive (or cheap) drivers installed, can be an impossible fix if it ain't right.
With that in mind, The Space Egg Corp's #1 rule of speaker building would have to be:-
"Weigh out some wedge on yer woofers"
Trans:-
Use the best possible bass driver you can (think of a decent spec, and then double it, at least).
Once you've spent hours (days(weeks)) gluing up a complicated cabinet and making big holes in it, woofers are 99% impossible to change. Tweeters fortunately are more forgiving.
Sorry if all you vets. are nodding off out there, but if someone told me that when I started, I would have more cool speakers to listen to, and less ash on my bonfire !
By the way, before I try to spec. out 'The Versatile' loudspeaker.
I would love to hear from any members who have used any of the following drivers and components in any type of speaker whatsoever, and their opinion of them.
Or who have used, and can give opinions on alternative similar parts.
That to me is what being a diyAudio member is all about.
BEWARE OF THE DOG
IT BITES !
woof woof woof woof
Woofer selection.
1. It has to be suitable for a 2 way speaker.
2. It has to have the absolute lowest possible resonant frequency.
3. It has to have the absolute widest possible frequency response.
4. Needs to have an alloy cast chassis.
5. Largest magnet available for it's cone size is a good sign.
6. It has to be a 'sensible' price (whatever that is).
7. It has to be replaceable, and (fingures X'ed) available for years to come,
8. Doesn't have to be light (am not going to use them for dumbells).
9. Power handling ? (not an issue, never seen a 1W 18" speaker).
Mmmm....is that all the main points ?
In our next thrilling episode, meet the 'Eminence Sigma Pro 18A-2'
BEWARE IT BITES !
Cheers
Simon
Speaker building has always seemed to me to be a risky business.
DIY speaker builders are the stunt people of the DIY audio world !
Jumping off tall cabinets, and praying they don't land with a sobering crash.
If your latest pre-amp sounds a bit off, you can always tweek a few bits here and there, and bring it back from the abyss.
If your turntable plays a bit bad, couple o' bucks on a new cart, and your on the rails again.
A big wooden box all glued up with holes cut in it, and expensive (or cheap) drivers installed, can be an impossible fix if it ain't right.
With that in mind, The Space Egg Corp's #1 rule of speaker building would have to be:-
"Weigh out some wedge on yer woofers"
Trans:-
Use the best possible bass driver you can (think of a decent spec, and then double it, at least).
Once you've spent hours (days(weeks)) gluing up a complicated cabinet and making big holes in it, woofers are 99% impossible to change. Tweeters fortunately are more forgiving.
Sorry if all you vets. are nodding off out there, but if someone told me that when I started, I would have more cool speakers to listen to, and less ash on my bonfire !
By the way, before I try to spec. out 'The Versatile' loudspeaker.
I would love to hear from any members who have used any of the following drivers and components in any type of speaker whatsoever, and their opinion of them.
Or who have used, and can give opinions on alternative similar parts.
That to me is what being a diyAudio member is all about.
BEWARE OF THE DOG
IT BITES !
woof woof woof woof
Woofer selection.
1. It has to be suitable for a 2 way speaker.
2. It has to have the absolute lowest possible resonant frequency.
3. It has to have the absolute widest possible frequency response.
4. Needs to have an alloy cast chassis.
5. Largest magnet available for it's cone size is a good sign.
6. It has to be a 'sensible' price (whatever that is).
7. It has to be replaceable, and (fingures X'ed) available for years to come,
8. Doesn't have to be light (am not going to use them for dumbells).
9. Power handling ? (not an issue, never seen a 1W 18" speaker).
Mmmm....is that all the main points ?
In our next thrilling episode, meet the 'Eminence Sigma Pro 18A-2'
BEWARE IT BITES !
Cheers
Simon
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-036s.pdf
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-427s.pdf
Maybe use one of these and partner it with the Econowave tweeter. They appear to have extension past 2k and the Econowave crosses around 1.6k...
There, i figured it all out for you... lol
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-427s.pdf
Maybe use one of these and partner it with the Econowave tweeter. They appear to have extension past 2k and the Econowave crosses around 1.6k...
There, i figured it all out for you... lol
Hi God
Thanks for your interest in 'the versatile' loudspeaker.
I checked out the PDF links you gave.
One is the data sheet for the Eminence Sigma Pro 18A-2 in this thread.
The other PDF I'm not sure what it is, as having tried it a few times would not open.
Can you let us know the subject of the other PDF ?
I googled 'econowave tweeter' and found myself at a thread started by yourself at diyAudio.
I see you proposed using an Eminence 'Lil' Buddy tm.' 10" on an open baffle with an econowave tweeter.
The 'Lil' Buddy tm.' is a guitar cabinet driver similar to the amusingly named 'Cannabis Rex tm.' both from the 'Patriot' range of guitar drivers by Eminence.
The 'Lil' Buddy tm.' has a resonance of 149 Hz, an intentional 'character peak' at the musical note D3, playable on the 3 low strings of a regular guitar, and all strings of a bass guitar (30th note on a regular piano key board).
Are you a guitar player, or are interested in guitar speakers ?
Whilst using the 'Lil' Buddy tm.' for 'the versatile' loudspeaker would be unsuitable.
I am intrigued to learn your reactions to using this guitar driver on an open baffle 2 way, for example how large was the baffle and what did it sound like etc.
Eminence make a bafflingly huge range (sorry) of such 'character peak' drivers, this one interestingly going to 5K, that finding one with the 'right' character seems like walking into a minefield.
Cheers
Simon
Thank you Joseph for posting the right link to the econowave project.
Simon, i never got around to trying the Lil Buddy... I don't think it will work at all in your proposed project either. I read it sounds good on OB with helper woofer and tweeter.
The link that won't open for you is a Dayton 18" driver similar to the Eminence. They both extend somewhat past 2k... most of the others did not go past 1k.
Simon, i never got around to trying the Lil Buddy... I don't think it will work at all in your proposed project either. I read it sounds good on OB with helper woofer and tweeter.
The link that won't open for you is a Dayton 18" driver similar to the Eminence. They both extend somewhat past 2k... most of the others did not go past 1k.
I play bass. Here's two speakers with 18" and a waveguide. Moving mass should be as low as possible and motor strength as high as possible.
The Karlson open-end waveguide was patented as a microwave antenna.
Stanley Clarke used Karlson-couplers at one time and apparently at first a different set than seen in a common picture
both 18" have good fidelity with the 1.875"x9" long slotted tube - moreso than a lot of "fullrange" stuff
The Karlson open-end waveguide was patented as a microwave antenna.
Stanley Clarke used Karlson-couplers at one time and apparently at first a different set than seen in a common picture
both 18" have good fidelity with the 1.875"x9" long slotted tube - moreso than a lot of "fullrange" stuff
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hi Doug
Yes I had wondered about beaming.
A product I noticed recently and was intrigued by is the 'Tayden Sonic Diffuser'.
These are available, I think, only up to 12" diameter.
They are intended to be fitted to guitar cabinet type speakers to deflect unwanted beaming sideways.
I did wonder If I could lash together my own DIY beam deflector for an 18".
Just noticed also Dayton Audio produce a big 12" circular waveguide which looks interesting. They quote crossover at 1.2k Hz.
I umed & rred about a 3 way, but, would love to try a 2 way, and get away without a 3rd driver. Mmmm?
Cheers
Simon
Tayden Sonic Diffuser
Hi again Doug
& anyone who was wondering what a 'Tayden Sonic Diffuser' is.
Here's a picture of one.
Basicaly a pointy pyramid type exponential cone type thingy in reverse, if you get my drift.
DIY pointy shape held by dowel or alloy rods, fairly easy to lash up by the looks of things.
I Read feedback from several happy customers on the net, who said their beaming problems were gone !
Perhaps the DIY version could be called 'The Beam Be Gone', groan...
Cheers
Simon
Hi again Doug
& anyone who was wondering what a 'Tayden Sonic Diffuser' is.
Here's a picture of one.
Basicaly a pointy pyramid type exponential cone type thingy in reverse, if you get my drift.
DIY pointy shape held by dowel or alloy rods, fairly easy to lash up by the looks of things.
I Read feedback from several happy customers on the net, who said their beaming problems were gone !
Perhaps the DIY version could be called 'The Beam Be Gone', groan...
Cheers
Simon
Attachments
Dayton 18" Driver
Hi Godzilla
I checked out the Dayton 18" driver.
You didn't mention a part #, but I assume it's the Dayton Audio PA460-8-18.
Dayton quote 25 Hz - 1.5k Hz, with a nice big 109oz magnet, so it could be a usable driver.
Sadly for me there appears to be no distribution in the UK, only Holland & Germany in Europe, who don't stock this item, so was unable to get a price.
Dayton seems a popular brand in the US as you obviously know, so I guess availability in the US is not a problem.
Cheers
Simon
Hi Godzilla
I checked out the Dayton 18" driver.
You didn't mention a part #, but I assume it's the Dayton Audio PA460-8-18.
Dayton quote 25 Hz - 1.5k Hz, with a nice big 109oz magnet, so it could be a usable driver.
Sadly for me there appears to be no distribution in the UK, only Holland & Germany in Europe, who don't stock this item, so was unable to get a price.
Dayton seems a popular brand in the US as you obviously know, so I guess availability in the US is not a problem.
Cheers
Simon
I've used Eminence Sigma type before and they're ok and have good excursion and power handling - moving mass for the current version is 130g - not sure if the price is good in your area
2 of my old 18" reflex boxes (6.4 and 8.2 cubic feet internal volume) - they vent into the apertures like RJ and Eliptoflex
btw - Karlson couplers have more power in the "hit" region than reflex and less excursion - -for a given overall bulk there's less small signal low frequency extension than with reflex- - there's not a lot of fundamental in a round wound low B - I personally do not like 5 string basses - partly due to hand/shoulder problems - partly due to not knowing what to do with the low string.. partly due to being used to my bunch of metalneck Kramers
2 of my old 18" reflex boxes (6.4 and 8.2 cubic feet internal volume) - they vent into the apertures like RJ and Eliptoflex
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
btw - Karlson couplers have more power in the "hit" region than reflex and less excursion - -for a given overall bulk there's less small signal low frequency extension than with reflex- - there's not a lot of fundamental in a round wound low B - I personally do not like 5 string basses - partly due to hand/shoulder problems - partly due to not knowing what to do with the low string.. partly due to being used to my bunch of metalneck Kramers
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If you like large magnets how about a Volt RV4504 or RV4514?
I think 11.5kg (405oz) should make you happy, the price may not!
But they are built in the UK to order.
They can be purchased here:
Volt Pro PA - Sabre International
And here is a bit more info:
Volt Loudspeakers - About Us
But the bottom line is that I think a 15" would be better suited for a two-way speaker.
I think 11.5kg (405oz) should make you happy, the price may not!
But they are built in the UK to order.
They can be purchased here:
Volt Pro PA - Sabre International
And here is a bit more info:
Volt Loudspeakers - About Us
But the bottom line is that I think a 15" would be better suited for a two-way speaker.
Hi freddi
Thanks for your interest in the thread.
You seem like the man with a plan when it comes to bass.
You've given me alot of things to check out, Stanley Clarke, microwave ariels etc.
Will get back to you, as I'm sure I will have some questions to ask you about your speakers, I havn't quite seen anything like them before.
Yes, I am not sure what to do with string 5, but I thought if I didn't get a 5 I'd always be wondering about it !
The Sigma Pro 18 is £130 inc tax & delivery in the UK.
For such an obviously high quality product as it seems to be, I have no problem paying £130 for it, and would go as far as to say it seems like VERY good value for money compared to over priced, over hyped drivers such as B+C (and I'm sure I'll get some flak on that one !!!).
Cheers
Simon
Hi Charles Darwin
I have 4 Volt drivers sitting behind me in boxes right now, making blissful noise.
Maybe that's why I've been so happy with my existing speakers for so long.
Yes, I'm a fan !
Yes they have VVEERRYY big magnets !
Dont get too close with your ATM card in yer pocket !
Cheers
Simon
Hi again Charles Darwin
As a long term Volt fan, I checked out your link to Sabre.
Yes very big, very nice looking units.
Alas, not suitable for 'the versatile' loudspeaker, as both the PA & Studio range have a very limited frequency response, seem to be intended for very large horn loading, and since 1000W power handling and cooling is not an issue for 'the versatile' loudspeaker, are very much OOVVEERR KKIILLLL.
The price seems quite reasonable to me though, they are almost starting to make the Eminence Sigma Pro 18A-2 look overpriced in my opinion.
Interesting though.
I guess I may have jumped up and down on top of a few of these at some of my favorite London venues.
Got any favorite compression drivers ?
Low bottom end extension would be good.
Cheers
Simon
Well, the reason I thought of those is that I have a couple of 12" radials in t/l cabs in my lounge.
Can't fault the things. They just sound fantastic regardless if I feed them 0.3w or 300w!
On the whole Volt appears very generous with their magnets, they are doing 10 inchers with 8.1kg magnets! May be it's a british thing, ATCs magnets are huge too but so are their price tags.
Can't fault the things. They just sound fantastic regardless if I feed them 0.3w or 300w!
On the whole Volt appears very generous with their magnets, they are doing 10 inchers with 8.1kg magnets! May be it's a british thing, ATCs magnets are huge too but so are their price tags.
The 4514 is designed for horns, the 4504 for ported cabs AFAIK.
As far as compression drivers go I use the ones that are fitted to my Tannoy DCs!
Volt themselves seem to recommend BMS as they use them for their co-axials.
Good endorsement in my view but I have never heard a bad thing said about BMS compression drivers either.
They do a co-axial compression driver, it's not cheap but it goes from 300Hz to 22k so it might be an option for you.
Overview
They also do 3 versions with neo magnets for presumably even more money.
As far as compression drivers go I use the ones that are fitted to my Tannoy DCs!
Volt themselves seem to recommend BMS as they use them for their co-axials.
Good endorsement in my view but I have never heard a bad thing said about BMS compression drivers either.
They do a co-axial compression driver, it's not cheap but it goes from 300Hz to 22k so it might be an option for you.
Overview
They also do 3 versions with neo magnets for presumably even more money.
Hi again, again, Charles Darwin.
Yes 2 of my Volts are in transmission line cabs as well.
The other 2 are in reflex cabs.
I can very much apreciate what your saying about volume.
They play great at an ambient wisper or on 11 with the Zep !
I'm hoping some quantum physics boffin will one day invent the quantum schottky magnet, that moves things in an instant, with no kick back !
Untill then measley magnets will sink any speaker before it's even had a chance to honk in anger.
Yes I should check out ATC.
I just happened to have an Eminence brochure in the dust under my desk.
The Sigma Pro 18 does seem to tick all the right boxes for me though in this application.
I looked at 15"ers, and the resonance was never below 30 Hz, even though on some of them the HF extension was good.
I'm never one to make a snap decision over components, and I don't have to start chopping MDF till the warm weather gets to Blightey (which could be a while judging from this winter).
In the meantime it's good to bung a few ideas around on diyAudio, as it is always amazing and inspiring to see what people have come up with.
Freddi's speaker cabs look pretty amazing for example.
Cheers
Simon
You are wanting to build a two way, you are interested in a large driver, you want the woofer producing midrange, and you are interested in just where it beams. So far so good. If you then want it to have a low resonance frequency, you place restrictions on your choices. Low resonance drivers may be built with differing priorities, and may have lower sensitivities, for example.
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