Re: Optimised design....
Brett wrote:
This seems like a somewhat contradictory statement!
What is the x-max of the P13WH ?
I too was looking at the Thor but was put-off by the high price of the drivers in Oz. I can't quite cope with $2000 in drivers for a speaker I haven't heard
I have looked at the Ariel for a long while but was put-off by the statements by Lynn that it simply and positively doesn't work with a SS amp .... alas, this cuts me out!
(I'm always a little dubious when people make statements like this ..... makes you wonder if there are pre-conceived biases ??)
My latest idea is to try building a "Thor-like" TL, but using cheaper drivers, specifically those from the VSS Eros ( http://speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Projects/Eros Project/vsseros.htm ).
This way I can play with the TL idea and if it all turns to "sh1t" then I can revert to the boxes from the Eros, which seems to be reasonably thought-of. The only problems with building the Eros are the multiple inconsistencies between the web description and the diagrams ...... a problem not adequately resolved by e-mailing the author ..... makes me somewhat nervous
cheers, mark
Brett wrote:
Brett said:
This seems like a somewhat contradictory statement!
What is the x-max of the P13WH ?
I too was looking at the Thor but was put-off by the high price of the drivers in Oz. I can't quite cope with $2000 in drivers for a speaker I haven't heard
I have looked at the Ariel for a long while but was put-off by the statements by Lynn that it simply and positively doesn't work with a SS amp .... alas, this cuts me out!
(I'm always a little dubious when people make statements like this ..... makes you wonder if there are pre-conceived biases ??)
My latest idea is to try building a "Thor-like" TL, but using cheaper drivers, specifically those from the VSS Eros ( http://speakerbuilder.net/web_files/Projects/Eros Project/vsseros.htm ).
This way I can play with the TL idea and if it all turns to "sh1t" then I can revert to the boxes from the Eros, which seems to be reasonably thought-of. The only problems with building the Eros are the multiple inconsistencies between the web description and the diagrams ...... a problem not adequately resolved by e-mailing the author ..... makes me somewhat nervous
cheers, mark
Mefinnis:
Once upon a time I chose the Vifa PL18WO-09-08, used in the kit You're refering to, because of the good-looking specs, and I haven't regretted it. I use them in a small 2-way system, Vb=10,6 liters, Fb=42Hz, and a cross-over point at 2,2kHz.
They do have a deep'n clean bass, and a good midrange, but if You're to use them in a TL, I'd suggest You use 2 woofers/speaker, or You might find the low end a bit thin.
Once upon a time I chose the Vifa PL18WO-09-08, used in the kit You're refering to, because of the good-looking specs, and I haven't regretted it. I use them in a small 2-way system, Vb=10,6 liters, Fb=42Hz, and a cross-over point at 2,2kHz.
They do have a deep'n clean bass, and a good midrange, but if You're to use them in a TL, I'd suggest You use 2 woofers/speaker, or You might find the low end a bit thin.
YEP .... I agree!
This is why I said a "Thor-Like" design, ie. following an MTM arrangement.
Now, how much of a problem do we create by going MTM in a TL. I have sent a private e-mail to Jon Risch and Dave ex the TL speaker site: http://www.t-linespeakers.org/design/classic.html .. asking this exact question.
Dr Joe turns this into a "benefit" .... "2 drivers exciting the line at different points helping to smooth and extend the bass response" .... now is this real, or just Joe in love with MTM and showcasing the Excel drivers as hinted at previously? Hell I don't know ..... this is why I asked the question. Ain't seen a reply yet ... please
What I am doing is applying Jon's "rules" along the Thor design lines. If we look at Thor, it has:
A1:Sd = 1.5 / A2:Sd = 0.5 for 3:1 taper
Jon's rules suggest this is a little steep, but then Dave says recent trends are to use a higher taper ratio ..... (see earlier post)
The current drawing of my boxes are 1.3:0.8, which are closer to the "old-school". I'v downloaded Martin's MathCAD models and am trying to adapt these to model 2 drivers .... not an easy task for a "dumbass medico".
Most importantly, at this stage, I'm having fun
All help and comments gratfully received .... mark
This is why I said a "Thor-Like" design, ie. following an MTM arrangement.
Now, how much of a problem do we create by going MTM in a TL. I have sent a private e-mail to Jon Risch and Dave ex the TL speaker site: http://www.t-linespeakers.org/design/classic.html .. asking this exact question.
Dr Joe turns this into a "benefit" .... "2 drivers exciting the line at different points helping to smooth and extend the bass response" .... now is this real, or just Joe in love with MTM and showcasing the Excel drivers as hinted at previously? Hell I don't know ..... this is why I asked the question. Ain't seen a reply yet ... please
What I am doing is applying Jon's "rules" along the Thor design lines. If we look at Thor, it has:
A1:Sd = 1.5 / A2:Sd = 0.5 for 3:1 taper
Jon's rules suggest this is a little steep, but then Dave says recent trends are to use a higher taper ratio ..... (see earlier post)
The current drawing of my boxes are 1.3:0.8, which are closer to the "old-school". I'v downloaded Martin's MathCAD models and am trying to adapt these to model 2 drivers .... not an easy task for a "dumbass medico".
Most importantly, at this stage, I'm having fun
All help and comments gratfully received .... mark
Mark:
I'm not shure weather 2 drivers will extend the frequency response, I merely see it as a way to increase output-level at the low end by rolling one of the drivers off at say 100Hz, 6dB/oct low-pass.
When calculating line-dimensions You'll have 2xSd, but a Fs being approximately unchanged.
I think a 3:1 taper is much to steep, I'd try with A1=2xSd, and A2=1xSd, but that's just my feeling, and I'd love to hear about the result, since whenever I'll get more room, I'll rebuild my speakers into TL's.
I'm not shure weather 2 drivers will extend the frequency response, I merely see it as a way to increase output-level at the low end by rolling one of the drivers off at say 100Hz, 6dB/oct low-pass.
When calculating line-dimensions You'll have 2xSd, but a Fs being approximately unchanged.
I think a 3:1 taper is much to steep, I'd try with A1=2xSd, and A2=1xSd, but that's just my feeling, and I'd love to hear about the result, since whenever I'll get more room, I'll rebuild my speakers into TL's.
Bedroc
I'm a Odin owner. ODINs are nice speakers, but are very sensitive to the other part of the system and the room acoustics (You'll need a really good amp). They have extremely deep and tuneful bass, and are very detailed. I had to make lots of mods, and I even changed the whole crossover to make them sound good to me. The Thor is provided with more expensive tweeter, so maybe you wan't suffer from such problems.
Before that I owned a TL speakers (my own project). They sounded fery good for the drivers price. Sometimes I regret I've sold them.
My own oppinion is that TLs give good results, but be prepared to play a lot with the damping stuff. I think that the Thor will give good results being a Odin-TL hybrid. The XO looks simple for these Excel drivers though. It looks like that at least to me.
Success
I'm a Odin owner. ODINs are nice speakers, but are very sensitive to the other part of the system and the room acoustics (You'll need a really good amp). They have extremely deep and tuneful bass, and are very detailed. I had to make lots of mods, and I even changed the whole crossover to make them sound good to me. The Thor is provided with more expensive tweeter, so maybe you wan't suffer from such problems.
Before that I owned a TL speakers (my own project). They sounded fery good for the drivers price. Sometimes I regret I've sold them.
My own oppinion is that TLs give good results, but be prepared to play a lot with the damping stuff. I think that the Thor will give good results being a Odin-TL hybrid. The XO looks simple for these Excel drivers though. It looks like that at least to me.
Success
I have built the TLb from planet10's www.t-linespeakers.org web site.
I have not heard the Ariel, but maybe it will sound very similar. It could be a good idea to build the TLb as it uses the same woofers and if you like the sound, then build the Ariel?
As for amps, build an AKSA (www.printedelectronics.com) The Ariel and an AKSA should sound good together.
I have not heard the Ariel, but maybe it will sound very similar. It could be a good idea to build the TLb as it uses the same woofers and if you like the sound, then build the Ariel?
As for amps, build an AKSA (www.printedelectronics.com) The Ariel and an AKSA should sound good together.
Ummm ... thanks, but I think I'm OK for an amp, or 2
See: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dkfinnis/passlabs/index.htm
I was actually having a sideways shot at the comments from Lynn, who has probably forgotten more than I will know about speakers, but certainly appears to come from the "tube-camp".
Please lets not get into that here! I would really love to see some further input from the TL gurus. Especially on what values I use for the TS specs using 2 drivers in Martin's model.
cheers, mark
See: http://members.ozemail.com.au/~dkfinnis/passlabs/index.htm
I was actually having a sideways shot at the comments from Lynn, who has probably forgotten more than I will know about speakers, but certainly appears to come from the "tube-camp".
Please lets not get into that here! I would really love to see some further input from the TL gurus. Especially on what values I use for the TS specs using 2 drivers in Martin's model.
cheers, mark
Dave Dlugos pointed out this discussion to me yesterday. I had not found this forum so I have been reading a lot over the last 24 hours. Excellent site!
I have seen the Thor design on the Internet but I am not intimately familiar with its performance. I guess my only comment is with respect to an MTM alignment in a TL. It is very easy to build a poor performing TL. I found that using only a single driver (woofer or full range) loaded by the TL made it much easier to get the best performance. While I know that people have gotten good results using an MTM in a TL enclosure it would seem to me that it is a risky proposition. Having two drivers loaded by the TL, at different axial positions, does not seem like an optimum situation.
I would recommend taking the money you are going to use to buy the second woofer and applying it to one better woofer. Having higher quality drivers can only make your project a higher performance system.
Martin
I have seen the Thor design on the Internet but I am not intimately familiar with its performance. I guess my only comment is with respect to an MTM alignment in a TL. It is very easy to build a poor performing TL. I found that using only a single driver (woofer or full range) loaded by the TL made it much easier to get the best performance. While I know that people have gotten good results using an MTM in a TL enclosure it would seem to me that it is a risky proposition. Having two drivers loaded by the TL, at different axial positions, does not seem like an optimum situation.
I would recommend taking the money you are going to use to buy the second woofer and applying it to one better woofer. Having higher quality drivers can only make your project a higher performance system.
Martin
Ariel Torture
I am quoting Lynn from memory, so apologies if I get this wrong.
His story is that he wasn't as convinced about tubes until he heard his early Ariel designs with certain tube models and they just sounded incredible.
Interestingly he doesn't like the Cary SETs with his speaks.
Likes the Doc Bottlehead designs- an important piece of info for this DIY crowd.
He says certain solid state sounds better than others with them.
Singles out Krell and Pass class A amps, single ended class A amps as not working well.
So, here I am, stuck. I HAD to build the Son of Zen amp 'cause I just loved the purity of the design. The Ariel is clearly a very well designed speaker, clearly Mr. Olsen is a fine designer, his web site makes that clear because it says designing speakers is HARD.
The Ariel is quite efficient so seems to be a perfect match for the Son of Zen. BUT the Soz is a Pass single ended mosfet class A design-exactly what Lynn says doesn't work well with the speaker. He admits that he doesn't know why.
Lynn does offer a lot of info on how to tune the crossover which might help. Also the Ariel is 4 ohm so the SOZ needs to be built differently fo 4 ohm. (Nelson Pass says divide all resistor values in half and reduce the power supply volts by 30%)
Did I read somewhere that certain Aleph models only work best with 8 ohm speakers? Maybe this is the problem.
To sum up: Do the Ariels sound worse than other speakers when using certain solid state amps? Or does Lynn just think certain tube amps are better in general?
Lynn is especially conceren about midrange which is where the SETs are reputed to shine.
I really wanted to make the Ariels yet they gotta work with the PAss designs to make me happy. Anyone have ariels and tried them with various solid state amps? I suspect they sound great!
MArk
I am quoting Lynn from memory, so apologies if I get this wrong.
His story is that he wasn't as convinced about tubes until he heard his early Ariel designs with certain tube models and they just sounded incredible.
Interestingly he doesn't like the Cary SETs with his speaks.
Likes the Doc Bottlehead designs- an important piece of info for this DIY crowd.
He says certain solid state sounds better than others with them.
Singles out Krell and Pass class A amps, single ended class A amps as not working well.
So, here I am, stuck. I HAD to build the Son of Zen amp 'cause I just loved the purity of the design. The Ariel is clearly a very well designed speaker, clearly Mr. Olsen is a fine designer, his web site makes that clear because it says designing speakers is HARD.
The Ariel is quite efficient so seems to be a perfect match for the Son of Zen. BUT the Soz is a Pass single ended mosfet class A design-exactly what Lynn says doesn't work well with the speaker. He admits that he doesn't know why.
Lynn does offer a lot of info on how to tune the crossover which might help. Also the Ariel is 4 ohm so the SOZ needs to be built differently fo 4 ohm. (Nelson Pass says divide all resistor values in half and reduce the power supply volts by 30%)
Did I read somewhere that certain Aleph models only work best with 8 ohm speakers? Maybe this is the problem.
To sum up: Do the Ariels sound worse than other speakers when using certain solid state amps? Or does Lynn just think certain tube amps are better in general?
Lynn is especially conceren about midrange which is where the SETs are reputed to shine.
I really wanted to make the Ariels yet they gotta work with the PAss designs to make me happy. Anyone have ariels and tried them with various solid state amps? I suspect they sound great!
MArk
i myself am by no means a significant contributor to this thread, much less this site, nonetheless let me welcome you here, martin.
your TL model papers have made me want to attempt a TL design. (they've also reminded me how much math i'd forgotten since getting my engineering degree.)
anyway, hopefully you'll stick around so we can bounce ideas off off you from time to time.
your TL model papers have made me want to attempt a TL design. (they've also reminded me how much math i'd forgotten since getting my engineering degree.)
anyway, hopefully you'll stick around so we can bounce ideas off off you from time to time.
Hi Martin. Your point is undisputable from the TL side.
If I can defend my insanity for a moment, there were a couple of reasons for trying along this line. At the end of the exercise I would really like some speakers which perform better than my current pair, but like all people I have constraints (WAF = wife acceptance factor = size & no too many $$$).
You may have noticed in a previous post I wrote:
The reason I have veered away from using say a single 8" driver is I believe (for equivalent units) the midrange is generally not as good. Lynn wouldn't even go beyond 5.5" for the Ariel! And if the TL side of things goes astray, then I would not choose a 8" 2-way BR system normally.
Does this sound like "trying to have his cake & eat it too" ....... YEP!
So, the general plan is to "play" with the TL concept, but with a driver complement I can carry across to another "suitable" design if all fails.
If this makes some sort of perverse sense, then I have succeeded
mark
PS: So, what do I do with the TS parameters for 2-drivers?
If I can defend my insanity for a moment, there were a couple of reasons for trying along this line. At the end of the exercise I would really like some speakers which perform better than my current pair, but like all people I have constraints (WAF = wife acceptance factor = size & no too many $$$).
You may have noticed in a previous post I wrote:
The reason I have veered away from using say a single 8" driver is I believe (for equivalent units) the midrange is generally not as good. Lynn wouldn't even go beyond 5.5" for the Ariel! And if the TL side of things goes astray, then I would not choose a 8" 2-way BR system normally.
Does this sound like "trying to have his cake & eat it too" ....... YEP!
So, the general plan is to "play" with the TL concept, but with a driver complement I can carry across to another "suitable" design if all fails.
If this makes some sort of perverse sense, then I have succeeded
mark
PS: So, what do I do with the TS parameters for 2-drivers?
hello,
on what grounds does one choose drive units for a speaker? ... the ariel uses Vifa PH13W wich has VAS=10L FS=60HZ Qts= ?...
the scan-speak 15w/8530K has VAS=28L FS=30L Qts=0,27 i like that driver alot and like the transmissionline design of the ariel..and i figure if i somehow could use that enclouser or slightly redesign it for the 15W but i dont know where to start?...
any hints?...
on what grounds does one choose drive units for a speaker? ... the ariel uses Vifa PH13W wich has VAS=10L FS=60HZ Qts= ?...
the scan-speak 15w/8530K has VAS=28L FS=30L Qts=0,27 i like that driver alot and like the transmissionline design of the ariel..and i figure if i somehow could use that enclouser or slightly redesign it for the 15W but i dont know where to start?...
any hints?...
mefinnis said:
Mark,
You don't have to defend your idea, everybody has thier own particular design goals based on what is important for them in the finished speaker system. Personally I like 8" drivers and am not really a big fan of the MTM style of speakers. I have heard many very good MTM speakers but they are not for me. Follow whatever path makes the most sense for your situations.
Martin
DIYaudio Neophyte
After I posted my first message, I noticed the title "DIYaudio Neophyte" placed under my name. I e-mailed the list administrator asking him to remove this label. Evidently this is a part of this forum and he declined. That is well within his rights. So I have asked him to remove me as a member. This will be my last post. I am sorry but I do not like labels.
Good luck and if you have questions on my TL work, I would be more than willing to discuss them off of the forum.
Martin
MJKing57@aol.com
After I posted my first message, I noticed the title "DIYaudio Neophyte" placed under my name. I e-mailed the list administrator asking him to remove this label. Evidently this is a part of this forum and he declined. That is well within his rights. So I have asked him to remove me as a member. This will be my last post. I am sorry but I do not like labels.
Good luck and if you have questions on my TL work, I would be more than willing to discuss them off of the forum.
Martin
MJKing57@aol.com
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