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Old 7th December 2010, 01:25 AM   #741
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmmlc View Post
Hello,

The classical "shoot out" of the European Triode Festival was this year 2010 devoted to horns and waveguides.

16 horns were brought by participants to ETF2010 for the contest.

Aside of the official shoot-out I could measure all the 16 horns in the same excellent conditions (a very large room with a very late first reflection).

You may find the link to the report I wrote at the bottom of ETF2010 "shoot out" page on the Triodefestival.com website:

European Triode Festival - ETF 2010 Shootout

A direct link to the report is:

http://forums.melaudia.net/attachment.php?aid=1760

Pictures taken before and during the shoot out can be seen at:

MELAUDIA :: ETF 2010

I think the results of the measurements performed and specially the presentation of the wavelets graph can add some thoughts to the discussion about honkness.


Best regards from Paris

Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Too bad the efficiency level was too high to include some more waveguide designs. The measurements provide some very interesting issues. I am interested in what would happen if there were some designed that did not use compression drivers were in the shootout.

Hey, no "minimum phase horn"
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Last edited by soongsc; 7th December 2010 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 7th December 2010, 02:24 AM   #742
dantheman is offline dantheman  United States
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Thanks Jmmlc! This is a service to horny guys everywhere.

Dan
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Old 7th December 2010, 04:16 AM   #743
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Very nice paper Jean Michel. Thanks for all the hard work.

Of course it presents a problem. The horns that measured the best did not win. Why?
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Old 7th December 2010, 06:28 AM   #744
dantheman is offline dantheman  United States
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We saw the same thing with the Orion, whatever, and Behringer B2031P. Any list of the statistics at the triode fest that someone smart could analyze?

Dan
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Old 7th December 2010, 06:49 AM   #745
thend is offline thend  France
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Originally Posted by panomaniac View Post
I agree, but we may be alone in that.

Nom de Dieu c'est triste Orly, le dimanche

Don't worry, the "dimanche" and the rest of the year too.
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Old 7th December 2010, 07:49 AM   #746
Jmmlc is offline Jmmlc  France
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Hello Panomaniac

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Originally Posted by panomaniac View Post
Of course it presents a problem. The horns that measured the best did not win. Why?
It will be very presumptuous of me to say I know why, but I may try to throw few hypothesis.

Apart of the fact that the crossover ferquency was probably to low for many horns:

1) The listening room was very large (it is a kind of ballroom) and the seats was very far from the petite Onken enclosures + horn. Also the Onken bass enclosure with the horn on top was placed on a stage, see:

http://www.melaudia.net/zfoto/etf10/...09-800x533.jpg

The axis of the horns were also quite high above the heads of the listeners.

So it is not surpising for me that the horns that won were horns having been used in movie theaters.

2) it is difficult to associate the horns having the best pulse response and the best spectrograms with bass reflex having quite poor impulse response. The ideal will be to mary them with bass horns.

3) in the conditions of the listening, in the far field in a semi-reverberating room, the level of the reverberated energy is large compared to the level of the direct wave and the benefit of an excellent pulse response is null. (Even in proximity I know people that prefer a pulse response with many effects of HOMs, diffractions, reflections because it add some blurr those people feel comfortable).

4) The horns having an increasing directivity with frequency should be listen in proximity and on axis (or near the axis). For those horns, in such large room the tonal balance change when you move from a seat on axis to a lateral seat.

5) this was not a blind shoot-out and the visual appearance had its importance (during the shoot out when the contest was between B : Bill Wood's beautiful AH300conical horn and A: the Musique Concrete J321 Le Cléac'h round black horn, before we even play music, one guy shouted: "B" and the crowd to laugh...). Also famous brands were favorite even before to start the contest. And as there was a majority of German people in the audience, I guess that explain why 2 Klangfilms horns were in the final... (IMHO one of them was far better than the other one which should not have been in final if the shoot out was blind).


But there is something most of ETF2010 participants will accord on: in the 1/8th final, the 8 winner horns were good horns.

Best regards from Paris,

Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h

Last edited by Jmmlc; 7th December 2010 at 08:06 AM.
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Old 7th December 2010, 02:28 PM   #747
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Thanks Jean-Michel, very well explained. Sighted tests can be tricky, but they don't always trump hearing. Brand loyalty and nationality can be harder to overcome.

Your point #2 is well taken and leads to a rather complex subject - driver matching. Some drivers just play together better than others, despite similar FR. Something about the tonality and maybe the decay. But that's a big subject and for another thread.
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Old 7th December 2010, 03:31 PM   #748
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Originally Posted by Jmmlc View Post
I guess that explain why 2 Klangfilms horns were in the final... (IMHO one of them was far better than the other one which should not have been in final if the shoot out was blind).

Besides all imperfections of that shootout (XO parameters, brand loyalty and nationality, general setting) - what is your impression on the acoustic lens regarding a specific sonic pattern (not directivity related!) ?

Michael

Last edited by mige0; 7th December 2010 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 7th December 2010, 04:49 PM   #749
thend is offline thend  France
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In my opinion, the most interesting case is the conical horn.

I think, the less amount of reflected wave from mouth to throat result to flat or rectilinear geometry because it's more directive than curvilinear geometry.
So, I think there are less reflection in-axis but not off-axis, compared to curvilinear shape which is more omnidirectional reflection surface.
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Old 7th December 2010, 04:59 PM   #750
Jmmlc is offline Jmmlc  France
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Besides all imperfections of that shootout (XO parameters, brand loyalty and nationality, general setting) - what is your impression on the acoustic lens regarding a specific sonic pattern (not directivity related!) ?
Hello Michael,

I really liked the Klangfilm horn with its acoustic lens at mouth and the field coil driver (IMHO it was superior sonically than, the other Klangfilm without lens and with an alnico driver).

During the listening of that Klangfilm horn equipped with the acoustic lens at mouth and the field coil driver I felt that the sound was smooth an delicate (romantic?) but also that there was some loss of details compared to the Avant-Garde horn or the Le Cléac'h.

I guess that the numerous diffraction that we can see on the spectrogram add some blurr to the music and erase some details that can be perceived as non useful for the perceiption of the music.

What I can see on the spectrogram of that Klangfilm is that it has an even repartition of numerous effects of diffraction, reflection, HOMs... , both on a very large duration and until the highest frequencies, when, others have a pattern with concentrated zones in time and frequency.

There is probably some masking effect (masking effect by "noise") at work that in this case is not prejudiciable to the perceiption of the music.

Best regards from Paris, France

Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h

Last edited by Jmmlc; 7th December 2010 at 05:02 PM.
 

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