Monitor Audio RS8 speakers harsh sounding.

[davidsrsb]

Monitor Audio are usually fairly well engineered, but like many modern British designs, have raised HF response. I'm sure this is to get good reviews for "detail" and compensate for older listeners hearing loss, but it does end up as listening fatigue

 

[artcheezzz]

Hey guys, could anyone help me out with crossover build for MA RS8?

Thats some details from whathifi conversation:

-----------------------
Trevor, you have inspired me to upgrade the crossovers in my RS8's and RSLCR. If you don't mind, I'd lke to confirm with you the components (and their values) you recommend. The codes in brackets are order codes from Amplifier valve kits, HIFI pre-amplifiers, speaker kits, AMP Parts, upgrade components - Hifi Collective.

Capacitors:

Per RS8:

Clarity Cap SA,* 1 x 3.9 uF (CCSA230)

Clarity Cap SA , 1 x 6.8 uF (CCSA300) - How come you did not use a 6.2uF cap as it is closer to the original value of 6uF?

*

Coils:

L2 coils: Mundorf M-Coil Aronit-core coils (BA140)

L3/L4 coils: Mundorf Foil M-Coil (CFC-14)

*

Resistors:

Which one for the RS8's:

Mundorf M-Resist Supreme, 1.8 Ohm, 20 Watts (MRES20-040), or

Duelund Graphite Silver, 1.8 Ohm, 10 Watts (DUELR-040)

Probably would not be much difference, would there?

*

Bypasses (one per capacitor):

Vishay MKP1837.

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I am totaly new to this, buy with your help guys i really can make it and going to make clear step-by-step tutorial for noobs, same like me, once we done.

Any voluntiers to help me out? I live in UK, and is thats all what i need for starting making new crossovers?
(MRES20-040) - 1.8R 20W Mundorf M-Resist Supreme Resistor (1R8) | Hifi Collective
(SUPSGO-010) - 0.01uF 1000V Mundorf MCap Supreme Silver Gold Oil Capacitor | Hifi Collective
(CCSA-300)- 6.8uF Claritycap SA Range polypropylene | Hifi Collective
Search | Hifi Collective
5x VISHay Ero kp1830 (AKA MKP1837) 63V 0.015UF 15nF 1% HI END AUDIO CAPS! | eBay

ANY suggestions are welcome, i just want to learn more about crossovers, and gain some little experience and improve the sounds.

 

[TBTL]

Higher grade crossover components will not tame the harshness. You have to change the component values.

For the RS6, the harshness could be from rising response and the huge tweeter breakup at 20 kHz. The RS8 might be similar. Measurements of the RS6 loudspeaker | Stereophile.com

 

[Mario Pankov]

"Higher grade crossover components will not tame the harshness." - this from the post above is true and some of the newer components may actually make things even brighter. And going for Duelund parts for such low-class speaker ( no offense ) - I don`t see the point price/result wise.

Stereophile has reviewed the RS6 and measurements are available for it, I doubt the RS8 is much different: http://www.stereophile.com/content/monitor-audio-silver-rs6-loudspeaker-measurements

Looking at the amplitude response, no wonder you find them harsh. It is very hard to tell from this graph on what to do without to see the driver responses, but the bump at 10Khz might be caused by hard cone resonance that is lightly addressed in the crossover and the 2Khz one might be tweeter amplitude response knee, so not a perfect function. Or, the dip at 4Khz might be a phase issue. if you`re really looking to have a blind try, I would increase the series resistor value a bit and reduce the cap on the tweeter by 1.5-2.2uF. The bump at 60Hz is a trick to make them sound more dynamic

 

[artcheezzz]

And going for Duelund parts for such low-class speaker ( no offense ) - I don`t see the point price/result wise.

Thats fine, i know it is mid-range speakers.
And yes, it must be the same as RS6 just woofer measurments would be a bit different.

Looking at the amplitude response, no wonder you find them harsh. It is very hard to tell from this graph on what to do without to see the driver responses, but the bump at 10Khz might be caused by hard cone resonance that is lightly addressed in the crossover and the 2Khz one might be tweeter amplitude response knee, so not a perfect function. Or, the dip at 4Khz might be a phase issue. if you`re really looking to have a blind try, I would increase the series resistor value a bit and reduce the cap on the tweeter by 1.5-2.2uF. The bump at 60Hz is a trick to make them sound more dynamic

Thats what i want to learn, i dont really familiar to the graphs i am looking at.. and how is supposed to be, whats good, bad, too high or low...
Well those values i gave you is allready changed, normaly its should be 6.0 and 4.0 i think, thats why i asking for help, i dont mind experimenting, as long its done with common sense, not just by guessing.
Actually i am thinking to build DIY Seas THOR speakers, but beeing so lame its a bit scary start project without having clue what are you doing on every signle step of project Thats why i decided to experiment a bit with things i got allready. But if you guys say its really waste of money, i may rather read few books like "Loudspeaker Design Cookbook, 7th edition
by Vance Dickason"
Confused

 

[Mario Pankov]

When you take out the crossovers, can you determine what circuit goes to the tweeter? Let`s start from there. Post the values you see there.

I have listened to several Thor projects, they used to be popular in Bulgaria at some time, not impressed at all. The tweeter used in this project, my own opinion, has very poor price/performance ratio. For a lower price you can build a satori based speaker ( have a look at the one designed by Joachim Gerhard ) with a 15" helper for the bottom part - will kill any Thor ( even the Marvel one ).

 

[system7]

We had a look at a similar metal driver Monitor Audio S6 a while back. The S6 circuit is below.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/115780-monitor-audio-s6-tweek.html

The crossover was very basic and didn't address cone breakup much. This is not how you make an unfatiguing speaker. I'd agree that improving component quality is not the way forward. Crossover modifications might be. Some impedance correction (Zobel type shunts) would be a good start.

http://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/ImpedEqual/

 

[meeko]

My RS8s are 8 years old and I'm considering upgrade. Has there been any definitive advice on whether crossover upgrade/modification is the way to go? They are bright speakers, but paired with my old warm sounding Denon AVR they are non fatiguing to my ears.

Would there be any degradation in crossover components, i.e. increase in capacitor tolerance, justifying an upgrade to higher quality component, such as the Clarity Caps?

 

[eriksquires]

My RS8s are 8 years old and I'm considering upgrade. Has there been any definitive advice on whether crossover upgrade/modification is the way to go? They are bright speakers, but paired with my old warm sounding Denon AVR they are non fatiguing to my ears.

Would there be any degradation in crossover components, i.e. increase in capacitor tolerance, justifying an upgrade to higher quality component, such as the Clarity Caps?

Hi Meeko,

As I recall, Monitor audio uses inexpensive film caps liberally. They tend to be pretty stable over time. I'd say some Clarity ESA's or even just Mundorf MKPs will be worth it for you. The MKP's IMHO are underrated and under-priced. I have no experience with the Clarity SA line.

I think it really depends on the speakers and your taste. Looking at the Stereophile review of the RS6 here, I would say it's got quite a bit of treble. While better caps will make it sound smoother, you'll still end up with the same overall frequency profile. If you like them as-is, then sure, spending a little money ($15/speaker) would be worth it for you.

I normally recommend caps and resistors be upgraded while you are in there at least. Mills Wire Wound are my favorite, but many here like the Mundorf resistors as well in the price range. Start at the treble and work your way down in terms of spending money.

From what I remember of my Silver 7's, Monitor tends to use decent enough coils so that's usually not a problem.


Best,


Erik

 

[meeko]

Hi Erik,

Thanks for your advice. I'll definitely upgrade the capacitors and resistors and report back. Is it worth using small bypass capacitors, such as Vishay MKP1837? I've read others have done so with positive results (Humble Homemade Hifi).

Kind regards,

Meeko

 

[eriksquires]

Hi Erik,

Thanks for your advice. I'll definitely upgrade the capacitors and resistors and report back. Is it worth using small bypass capacitors, such as Vishay MKP1837? I've read others have done so with positive results (Humble Homemade Hifi).

Kind regards,

Meeko

I haven't had very good luck mixing bypass caps, but if you want to use a bypass cap of the same brand/type go ahead. The Mundorf MKP 0.1uF is under $4. I would also suggest start without. Wait about 5 days, then try the bypass caps. Also, the Vishay's are meant for PC mounting. Painful to fit onto a crossover cap.

I think that part of your goal of all this is to learn for yourself what makes a difference you can hear and would pay money for more. Having hands/ears on experience for yourself is worth all the DIY forums in the world. So I encourage you to take it a step at a time.

Best,


Erik