get the shellac flakes and mix with methyl alcohol.
We used DuPont automotive lacquer on MDF for my Thors --
The "edge grain" of MDF is what usually causes problems. It's hard to seal and joints can remain visible. The best method is to use miter joints, it not only increases gluing area to give a stronger joint, but it doesn't show any edge grain and remains fairly stable.
As for painting with a roller, it works just fine if you're willing to do a little extra work involving sanding and polishing. My audio buddy, John Nail, not only took Best Sound and Best 3-Way Speaker at our last speaker contest, but his "Purple Puppies" had miter jointed cabinets and an incredible "Imperial Purple" Polyurethane paint job done with a roller and Glidden Deck and Porch Oil-based Urethane paint. Really a knockout finish.
Anyone that says rollers or brushing can't produce an outstanding finish evidently doesn't know much about finishing.
I've also, back in the day, done custom motorcycle and car paint jobs using a spray gun. Candies, Metalflake, Flames, etc., so I'm not unfamiliar with the technique, but to say that you can't get a great Piano Black finish on a speaker cabinet using a brush or roller is not true. Hell, even piano finishers often use a brush to apply the finish.
Best Regards,
TerryO
As for painting with a roller, it works just fine if you're willing to do a little extra work involving sanding and polishing. My audio buddy, John Nail, not only took Best Sound and Best 3-Way Speaker at our last speaker contest, but his "Purple Puppies" had miter jointed cabinets and an incredible "Imperial Purple" Polyurethane paint job done with a roller and Glidden Deck and Porch Oil-based Urethane paint. Really a knockout finish.
Anyone that says rollers or brushing can't produce an outstanding finish evidently doesn't know much about finishing.
I've also, back in the day, done custom motorcycle and car paint jobs using a spray gun. Candies, Metalflake, Flames, etc., so I'm not unfamiliar with the technique, but to say that you can't get a great Piano Black finish on a speaker cabinet using a brush or roller is not true. Hell, even piano finishers often use a brush to apply the finish.
Best Regards,
TerryO
I haven't try anything on shellac just saying what carpenters tells me that they often correct someone else job i.e. polyurethane clearcoat on shellac primer that simply flakes.
Spraying isn't simple and equipment cost is high. MJL21193 have you got such a nice surface without grinding and polishing? With spraying you will always get small orange peel.
Spraying isn't simple and equipment cost is high. MJL21193 have you got such a nice surface without grinding and polishing? With spraying you will always get small orange peel.
Shellac is available in flakes (its raw form) but you must get the de-waxed variety if any type of top coat or paint is to be applied over it.
Shellac is a fabulous finish still used today. "French Polish" is still the finish of choice for superb period antique restorations and new productions. It lacks the protective qualities of the poly varnishes against liquids(alcohol will actually dissolve shellac!), but it also a much nicer finish, when done properly.
There are few masters left that can do this properly and they are in high demand. It is hard on the hands due to the application technique. I know of one such person that restores period antiques. He studied in Europe as an apprentice for over 8 years before coming back the US to start his own business. If you saw his disfigured thumb, you would understand the physical nature of this type of finish. But it is gloriously clear, not the "plastic" looking finish of most poly varnishes, with greater depth of clarity than any finish know to man when done correctly. He is a true artist when it comes to finishing anything.
Anyway shellac is wonderful "seal coat", but certain things have to be addressed first and one is to use a de-waxed variety if to be top coated or painted
PS: MD, HDF, particle board, etc, have no "end or edge grain". Real wood has an end grain, as the capillaries of the grain terminate at the "end grain". The other examples are products made from pulp and glue so they have no grain per say
Last edited:
The poly varnishes are without a doubt much more protective finishes. Shellac allows the beautiful grain to show thru like looking thru a crystal pane of glass, not a plastic film. But it is far more work that most anyone would want to do for a pair of speakers
Remember too that shellac can be refinished without stripping the finish like with poly varnishes! Touch ups are possible! Waterlox is another great repairable finish that does not have to be stripped completely to touch up mishaps. Of course lacquer is also repairable, as are others. Poly is a one time shot. Any damage to the finish, it must be completely stripped if you want it to come back to new again as it can not be redone easily.
That isn't strictly true. It depends on the severity of the damage and the skill of the technician - polyurethane finishes can be repaired.
Polyurethane finishes have the added bonus of being much tougher and harder to damage than other coatings.
That's true but as a sealer (protective) coat it's a waste of money. With my neighbor we did French polish but he used edible oil during pumice stage and after few month this oil migrated to the surface and it looks awful. My idea is to seal wood pores with acrylic 1k putty and then spray many shellac layers and do final French polishing.
Wrong! Polyurethane is a cross-linked poly finish that can not be recoated successfully. Just ask any poly manufacturer if their finishes can be "toched up" after a 24 hour period. That answer is NO! While they are more durable, they are no better than the substrate that holds them to damage. The wood is soft and if impacted, will give, thus the finish is irrelevant in this case. A ding is a ding and no finish will stop this
That is one of the down sides of poly finishes as it may be a varnish, but it is not a repairable finish by any means. Ask any cabinet shop or furniture maker if they would touch up a poly finish cabinet that has been cured for more than a day or so. If they know anything about poly finishes, this would be an absolute NO.
Do as you wish, but please do not spread wives tales about finishing. I refer you to Bob Flexner Amazon.com: UNDERSTANDING WOOD FINISHING by BOB FLEXNER: Home Improvement, the finishing guru of all of woodworking for further information about this issue. Or Jeff Jewitt Fine Woodworking among other experts in the wood finishing business if you need an experts opinion on this issue.
Last edited:
What are you protecting a speaker from exactly? It is like any piece of furniture. If you think that people will be sitting drinks on them, by all means use a poly finish. I have said that it is a far more durable finish in terms of envoromental issues (spilled drinks, condensation rings, etc), but as a finish, shellac, Waterlox, etc. are also great finishes. And it is repairable unlike polyurethanes
Last edited:
Curly,
Don't get the point.
Shellac finish (not a primer/sealer!) is nice but we have more options today and thanks for that. You can repair your poly, grind and polish if you need as you repair your car's clearcoat. The art starts when you know how to mix different techniques.
Poly softcoating:
http://www.alexseal.com/images/photo_interior.jpg
Don't get the point.
Shellac finish (not a primer/sealer!) is nice but we have more options today and thanks for that. You can repair your poly, grind and polish if you need as you repair your car's clearcoat. The art starts when you know how to mix different techniques.
Poly softcoating:
http://www.alexseal.com/images/photo_interior.jpg
All I am saying is that shellac is a great finish, unless you are concerned with spillage or poor treatment of your furniture. Poly is great for a kitchen table, but I would never use it for furniture myself. I prefer lacquer for most furniture projects as well as speaker cabinets.
Clearcoat is not a wood finish specifically, it is an acrylic automotive finish. The marine finish that you mentioned, is not something that the average wood worker would use either, unless you would use it as a paint substitute. Poly was never intended to be a product that could be touched up. It has to be stripped due to adhesion issues if it is not fully removed before refinishing. Read the can carefully and they will spell out how long after application, further coats can be reapplied safely. I have posted the links from world renowned wood finishing experts. If you choose not to follow industry standards, that is your issue. I just want to make sure that the masses know what is right and wrong.
Last edited:
The poly varnishes are without a doubt much more protective finishes. Shellac allows the beautiful grain to show thru like looking thru a crystal pane of glass, not a plastic film. But it is far more work that most anyone would want to do for a pair of speakers
Remember too that shellac can be refinished without stripping the finish like with poly varnishes! Touch ups are possible! Waterlox is another great repairable finish that does not have to be stripped completely to touch up mishaps. Of course lacquer is also repairable, as are others. Poly is a one time shot. Any damage to the finish, it must be completely stripped if you want it to come back to new again as it can not be redone easily.
Poly finishes can be simple sanded and redone.
What exact Poly products are you talking about though? The common Polyurethane products found at HD are used over stains and veneers all the time in speaker building. I have never read anywhere that people have a problem fixing anything. I use poly products on everything I have built over the years. (6 sets of speakers, end tables, subs, etc).
Note: Obviously any color staining is almost impossible to remove after started.
Read the books. Yes indeed poly can be used over stains, shellac, veneer, etc. It can not be reapplied over "itself" after the suggested time limts that are stated on the cans, as it will not adhere (melt into) to the old surface like other finishes do.
Poly is not a repairable finish. I have been a woodworker for many years, owned my own figured and exotic hardwood lumber business(Curly Woods) for over 6 years and worked closely with custom furniture makers, luthiers, and cabinet shops. It is not a repairable finish! It must be stripped completely from the substrate before attempting to reapply it. Please know what you are talking about before spreading more wives tale to the unknowing public.
Last edited:
No personal attacks needed.
I used Poly on every speaker build as a satin or gloss clear coat and its sandable. If its sandable, its fixable.
Maybe we are talking about two different things but I have sanded down my satin finish to fix a mistake and then applied Gloss instead, a year later its just fine.
Im happy you own a business, Figured and exotic hardwood is pretty cool. I spend probably $1000 a year just in veneers from Exotic Wood Veneer, Vacuum Press Systems, Vacuum Bags, Veneering Tools and Veneering Supplies I love the exotic veneer choices.
Last edited:
Doug,
You may do as you please, but it is not suggested nor acceptable in the industry to do this. It will have adhesion issues in time. It is not a good idea and I have never seen anywhere that it was an accepted practice in a professional business or forums.
I did not try to get personal. I simply tried to make a statement that people need to know about these things as other people read these forums and may try this approach. It is not the proper procedure whether it works for you or anyone else. It is a failure waiting to happen.
I closed my business in July 2007. My wife became disabled with lupus and lost her ability to walk as the Lupus had attacked the capillaries that feed the nerve endings in her legs. She can walk again finally, but loses her balance easily and is permanently disabled.
Veneer Supplies is a good place to do business with. Glad that you like them.
Last edited:
your last little comment was not needed, Im not spreading myths I was just posting my experience. Im not an expert though so I will defer to one. I just know that I have "Fixed" my problem once.
I will not argue if its right or wrong. You have made a valid point.
I only know what the industry standards are for woodworking industry finishes.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.