I am back surveying my garage and tools to begin making new equipment to listen to after a hiatus of 30 years. A few recent trips to Lowes, and the neighborhood hardware store show case lots of new tools and adhesives.
I must be getting more particular with age. More exact rather than more lazy, I like to think, because now I can't imagine working without a table saw and router. (Though I think these RotoZip (Dremels on steroids) are quite spanky.
Every loudspeaker I have built in the past was birthed with merely a Skill saw, electric hand drill, and files in the delivery room. Now there are more choices that are appealing. And arguably more resources with less hard choices.
But as I read and go down the rabbit holes of these threads I have been hearing a lot of discussion about not using screws. No prohibitions exactly, so much as some pride of accomplishment. There are more clamps out there now than Carter has liver pills, which is great. I imagine the adhesives are more advanced and trustworthy than Elmer's white glue. But what performance differences would there be if one were forsworn from screwing.
What is current de rigueur for fastening wood joints and why would one not use both screws and wood? (Unless it is assumed that cabinet=MDF and MDF doesn't hold screws worth a flip.)
I am looking for a construction thread of "best practices" in general but on fasteners in particular as I plan my first project back in the delivery room.
I must be getting more particular with age. More exact rather than more lazy, I like to think, because now I can't imagine working without a table saw and router. (Though I think these RotoZip (Dremels on steroids) are quite spanky.
Every loudspeaker I have built in the past was birthed with merely a Skill saw, electric hand drill, and files in the delivery room. Now there are more choices that are appealing. And arguably more resources with less hard choices.
But as I read and go down the rabbit holes of these threads I have been hearing a lot of discussion about not using screws. No prohibitions exactly, so much as some pride of accomplishment. There are more clamps out there now than Carter has liver pills, which is great. I imagine the adhesives are more advanced and trustworthy than Elmer's white glue. But what performance differences would there be if one were forsworn from screwing.
What is current de rigueur for fastening wood joints and why would one not use both screws and wood? (Unless it is assumed that cabinet=MDF and MDF doesn't hold screws worth a flip.)
I am looking for a construction thread of "best practices" in general but on fasteners in particular as I plan my first project back in the delivery room.
'La colle et les vis' (en français)
Réflexions sur la réalisation
des caissons «Onken»
http://www.ispra.net/audio/Onken/Audiophile_n26_dec1982/articulo_vibaud02.html
Réflexions sur la réalisation
des caissons «Onken»
http://www.ispra.net/audio/Onken/Audiophile_n26_dec1982/articulo_vibaud02.html
Screws are really terrible in MDF, and they tend to strip out when driven perpendicular and split the stuff when driven from the edge. So, not so secure. Plywood is better, but still a few screws are no match for some good glue.
More importantly some kind of mechanical joint. Even a simple rabbet adds a huge mechanical strength to a joint. I'm not any kind of expert in speaker design, but it seems to me that having all the sides of the box joined so they're acting together as one solid piece, not as six separately wobbling sides has got to be better.
--Buckapound
More importantly some kind of mechanical joint. Even a simple rabbet adds a huge mechanical strength to a joint. I'm not any kind of expert in speaker design, but it seems to me that having all the sides of the box joined so they're acting together as one solid piece, not as six separately wobbling sides has got to be better.
--Buckapound
Screwing is good. Specifically I like the expensive stainless steel screws Lowe's sells- the ones with the hex bit right in each box. They're designed not to pull out (not pulling out is good) in soft or difficult conditions. They're about $8, just like downtown as the saying goes. If everybody can see that you've screwed, go a bit deeper and use plugs or spot putty.
Screws in MDF
My best tip is to pre-drill the hole you want to put the screw into when using any man-made material. The root diameter of the screw is a good place to start.
Been at this for more than 20 years and used just about every method under the sun. Screws are quick and can be very strong if used in conjunction with the right glue.
Mark
P.S. for some tips on construction methods that are a bit different check out the thread I posted on Tapped horn for car. It uses a combination of methods.
My best tip is to pre-drill the hole you want to put the screw into when using any man-made material. The root diameter of the screw is a good place to start.
Been at this for more than 20 years and used just about every method under the sun. Screws are quick and can be very strong if used in conjunction with the right glue.
Mark
P.S. for some tips on construction methods that are a bit different check out the thread I posted on Tapped horn for car. It uses a combination of methods.
Henkjan said:
Wood filler + sandable filler primer make them invisible under paint.
Other people have had good results with Bondo which does not shrink when it dries and should therefore work with one coat.
Eschewing screws does allow for more finish options like a clear finish (shellac and/or clear lacquer) on top of Baltic Birch.
Attachments
Glue and screw: Is this being taped?
In the distant past I would fashion 1x2 frames and glue and screw sheets of cheap ply or particle board onto them. The screws seemed a substantive contribution to the integrity of the cabinet. With time and resources came better plywood and MDF used in cabinet making. I also found better glues like Tightbond in the 80's and the screws seemed more a way to ensure consistent clamping of the materials. I never owned or even knew about clamps. As I gear up to build some large horns I have been fascinated by the abundance of clamping choices. The section of Lowes I have been frequenting would make any bondage fan blush. But just as I was about to buy a lot of these puppies I read a thread by a fellow who successfully used heavy blue masking tape to complete a large columnar enclosure. Apparently, one can consummate a lasting and loyal bond with glue alone these days. Tightbond III specs read like a covenant. I may well indulge in some corner clamps to align boards but I have a suspicion that the screws are redundant. Clearly gratifying, but unnecessary for a lasting relationship.
In the distant past I would fashion 1x2 frames and glue and screw sheets of cheap ply or particle board onto them. The screws seemed a substantive contribution to the integrity of the cabinet. With time and resources came better plywood and MDF used in cabinet making. I also found better glues like Tightbond in the 80's and the screws seemed more a way to ensure consistent clamping of the materials. I never owned or even knew about clamps. As I gear up to build some large horns I have been fascinated by the abundance of clamping choices. The section of Lowes I have been frequenting would make any bondage fan blush. But just as I was about to buy a lot of these puppies I read a thread by a fellow who successfully used heavy blue masking tape to complete a large columnar enclosure. Apparently, one can consummate a lasting and loyal bond with glue alone these days. Tightbond III specs read like a covenant. I may well indulge in some corner clamps to align boards but I have a suspicion that the screws are redundant. Clearly gratifying, but unnecessary for a lasting relationship.
Yeah, I bought some of that Titebond III and the stuff is fantastic. I never thought there was much difference between wood glues, but it's stronger, dries faster and is waterproof. Highly recommended- no I don't own stock in the company and think it probably costs too much, but it's worth it.
cocolino said:
The following post's attached picture was taken six years after the speakers were finished and moved cross-country twice with homes ranging from alpine desert to within five blocks of the sea (Puget Sound).
No visible or tactile distinction between screw holes, MDF face, and MDF "end grain" even in person (bad digital cameras stink before the resolution is reduced).
Finishes controlling moisture movement (and therefore expansion or lack thereof) on both sides of finished surfaces are a fine idea.
Flat black paint is hard to keep dust-free, even with a cleaning service coming in every two weeks.
playing all the angles, its hip to be square
I have been Googling wood joinery to see what is new or old (that works) and came upon these square and adjustable Rockler clamping jigs. They seem very flexible and would work with my existing clamps.
Likely old news to many, but I had never seen a commercial product like this. I had used scrap blocks of wood to serve this purpose but these seem well made and reasonably priced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9i0DuAuTgw
Now what I am looking for is some kind of drill accessory that would act as a small drill press/guide for a drill. I have a drill with a bubble level that is helpful but would want something that would make a drill act like a plunger router.
I am planning on using dowels in my next project and have run into problems in the past when off kilter.
I have been Googling wood joinery to see what is new or old (that works) and came upon these square and adjustable Rockler clamping jigs. They seem very flexible and would work with my existing clamps.
Likely old news to many, but I had never seen a commercial product like this. I had used scrap blocks of wood to serve this purpose but these seem well made and reasonably priced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9i0DuAuTgw
Now what I am looking for is some kind of drill accessory that would act as a small drill press/guide for a drill. I have a drill with a bubble level that is helpful but would want something that would make a drill act like a plunger router.
I am planning on using dowels in my next project and have run into problems in the past when off kilter.
Re: playing all the angles, its hip to be square
Those have been around for years and are super handy. I bought my first one in Paris over 20 years ago after seeing an in store demo. Fantastic tool.
You can get them at most Lowes/Home Despot these days.
The Rockler thing is cool. I just use corner clamps like this
Fixed or ajustable. Very handy.
brucegseidner said:
Those have been around for years and are super handy. I bought my first one in Paris over 20 years ago after seeing an in store demo. Fantastic tool.
You can get them at most Lowes/Home Despot these days.
The Rockler thing is cool. I just use corner clamps like this
Fixed or ajustable. Very handy.
I like to make double walled boxes. The inner box gets glued and screwed together with but joints. The outer panel is either plywood or veneered MDF that is glued and screwed on. But the screw heads are on the inside of the cabinet so they never show through.
I really like gorilla glue, aka polyurethane glue. I read an article in Fine woodworking that yellow glue and others are stronger, but I've had MDF that was glued together with yellow glue come apart. Never happens with PU glue.
hope this helps.
JJ
I really like gorilla glue, aka polyurethane glue. I read an article in Fine woodworking that yellow glue and others are stronger, but I've had MDF that was glued together with yellow glue come apart. Never happens with PU glue.
hope this helps.
JJ
While everyone has concentrated on screws, drilling, filling, and finishing - overlooked one area. If routing a 3/4 round on the 3/4 MDF front baffle, where do the screws go? Can't go in the roundover so the choice is either 1) glue and use the woofer hole for interior access, or 2) screws at the 4 corners into internal bracing plus sealing felt/tape, and those 4 points become the anchors for a grill. Personally, I prefer the glue method with embedded/hidden magnets to support an optional grill without holes. If painting the box, interior drill for the magnets, otherwise top drill hole fo magnets and veneer cover.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.