Astasia Prject - 3 ways loudspeakers

[Yuli_35]

All,

As asked by few members of the audio community, I’m pleased to share with you (in English) my Project, launched two years ago.
Originally, this project has been launched in order to replace my existing Elipson horus 5 Loudspeakers. I’m working to improve these horus 5 now .
A bit more than 2 years ago, my knowledge in Loudspeakers creation was really limited (almost null). So I started to post something on a french Forum (as I’m french).
Everything started here : http://www.homecinema-fr.com/forum/posting.php?mode=edit&f=1055&p=170079129
As usual this project aims at the DIY community.

None of schematics, illustrations or information presented here may be used for commercial purposes without my written consent.

Special thank to : Jerome69 (Rodolphe) for his wide support during the project life.

- - - - - Project description - - - - -

Name of these new speakers : ASTASIA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euglena)

Technical Specifications :
- Speaker : 3 drivers – Bass Reflex
- Sensibility : 86.5 dB at 1m / 2.83V RMS
- Bandwidth : 29Hz - 40Khz (+3/-3 dB)
- Bandwidth : 50 Hz - 20Khz (+1/-1 dB) (50Hz is an estimate … cannot measure at this Frequency)
- Spécificity : Vent under the Box

Type of Speakers :
- Boomer: Seas - CA22RNX http://www.seas.no/images/stories/prestige/pdfdatasheet/h1288_ca22rnx_datasheet.pdf
- Medium: Seas - MCA15RCY http://www.seas.no/images/stories/prestige/pdfdatasheet/h1262_mca15rcy_datasheet_.pdf
- Tweeter: VIFA Vifa XT25TG30-04 http://www.tymphany.com/files/products/pdf/XT25TG30-04.pdf

Xover Specification:
- The Boomer is filtered using a Linkwitz Riley (Order 2) / 12dB/oct with a Fc set at 500Hz (low pass filter)
- The Medium is filtered using a Linkwitz Riley (Order 2) / 12dB/oct with a Fc set at 500Hz (high pass filter)
- The Medium is filtered using a Linkwitz Riley (Order 4) / 24dB/oct with a Fc set at 3000Hz (Low pass filter)
- The tweeter is filtered using a Linkwitz Riley (Order 4) / 24dB/oct with a Fc set at 3000Hz (high pass filter)

Xover is fairly simple compares to the high level of the filter :
- 5 Capacitors (All Capacitors are MKP – SCR or Audyn Cap QS )
- 4 Self (Air self from Mundorf 1.4mm² / Ferrite Self HQ58 type from IT for the boomer)
- 5 resistors (MOX 10W)

- > nothing ESOTERIC here !!!! -

end of part 1 -

 

[Yuli_35]

ASTASIA PROJECT - PART 2 - Measurements

The Xover :
Here is the last version of the xover. Please note that this one is the 4th one (done with the help of Rodolphe)

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Astasia - Plans
- Astasia 1.9 - 27 oct 2006

Measurements Tools && Methodology:
Originally the Drivers have been measured using a CLIO System (impedance as well as SPL ….) but these measurese were not correct.
With the help of “Jerome69”, I’ve build a full measurment system using an electret microphone (the electret has been calibrated)
The tool that has been used to execute the measurement is ARTA (really great tool – and very effective) http://www.fesb.hr/~mateljan/arta/
All the measurement have been done at 1 meter far from the loudspeaker at Tweeter le hight.

* * * * * *LoudSpeakers – Full Measurement* * * * * *

Impedance and electrical phase :

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SPL and Acoustic Phase :

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Please note that the Acoustic phase is Wrong from 8Khz … 20Khz. This is due to the fact that ARTA cannot display the measured phase with the phase compensation of the microphone.

Burst Decay

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CSD Waterfall

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CSD SONOGRAM

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[Yuli_35]

ASTASIA PROJECT - PART 3 - SPEAKERs MEASUREMENTS

* * * * * * The CA22 RNX :* * * * * *
Impédance :

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SPL:

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Burst Decay

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CSD Waterfall

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CSD SONOGRAM

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Thiel & small Parameters
These parameter have been evaluated using ARTA and a closed box Methodology.
Fs = 38.55 Hz
Re = 5.80 ohms[dc]
Le = 1531.29 uH
L2 = 610.14 uH
R2 = 14.78 ohms
Qt = 0.42
Qes = 0.51
Qms = 2.34
Mms = 22.33 grams
Rms = 2.309682 kg/s
Cms = 0.000763 m/N
Vas = 55.23 liters
Sd= 226.98 cm^2
Bl = 7.820266 Tm
ETA = 0.59 %
Lp(2.83V/1m) = 91.23 dB
Closed Box Method:
Box volume = 65.00 liters
Diameter= 17.00 cm[/b]

* * * * * *The MCA15RCY:* * * * * *
Impedance :

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SPL:

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Burst Decay:

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CSD Mode Waterfall :

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CSD SONOGRAM :

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T&S Parameters :
Fs = 56.27 Hz
Re = 5.87 ohms[dc]
Le = 1021.97 uH
L2 = 418.66 uH
R2 = 14.08 ohms
Qt = 0.29
Qes = 0.33
Qms = 2.12
Mms = 7.77 grams
Rms = 1.295488 kg/s
Cms = 0.001030 m/N
Vas = 9.28 liters
Sd= 80.12 cm^2
Bl = 6.943129 Tm
ETA = 0.48 %
Lp(2.83V/1m) = 90.22 dB
Closed Box Method:
Box volume = 4.00 liters
Diameter= 10.10 cm[/b]

* * * * * *The XT25-TG30-4* * * * * *
Impedance :

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SPL:

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Burst Decay

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CSD Waterfall

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CSD SONOGRAM

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[Yuli_35]

ASTASIA - PHOTOS

Astasia – how do they look like :

 

[Yuli_35]

ASTASIA PROJECT - Listening comments

* * * * * * SO WHAT .... * * * * * *
i will not do any comments on these loudspeakers, because it is always difficult to speak about its own "baby"
However, people have decided to reproduce these loudspeakers, and i will post here after the translation of their listening tests.

The First Diyer that deiced to do the Astasia is Denis

You will find his post here : http://www.quebecaudio.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=18016

And here is the translation of the two marvelous listening tests he did : [To be continued]

 

[frozen wing]

i have just heard the astasia that denis built today. i have to say that it is the best 3 way i have ever heard. I own a 3 way loudspeaker and the astasia are simply better. The blend of all three drivers is perfect nothing forward or behind. the bass goes very low. We listened to diffrent kind of music from soft rock to jazz to classic and every time its like if the musician where in front of you! Without a doubt, this is going to be next my project.

 

[e_fortier]

Simply amazing

Bonjour Gilles,

I had the pleasure to listen to the Astasia today in Montreal in a very well organized DIY get together and I must say that even though I normally prefer full range for their coherence the Astasia blew my mind away. We listened to Jazz, Classical, Rock and everything was perfect; perfect bass (not too over powereing, amazing mids and airy sparkly highs) I must say that if I had the money to invest in a great speaker it would be the one. Simply amazing work. Thanks for sharing your design and allowing a few DIYers (about 30) to listen to that great design. Congrats to you and Denis.

Eric

 

[Yuli_35]

hi Frozen Wings


thank you for your comments.
As you mentionned it ... when these loudspeakers are singing ... it is amazing how we have the impression that the artist is in the room. My little daughter (16 months) alway turn her head looking for the singer when These Loudspeakers are playing .... and this is not the case with the other loudspeakers i've (commercial ones).
I would not say that the Astasia are the best 3 ways in the world but considering the price ... it is hard to find something better in the same range (of price) - From what I was able to listen.
I suppose that If I double the budget in speakers, I could do something even better

Great if you want to do a copy of these loudspeakers, ... I would be happy to help. In France there is another guy that is building at that time a copy of these Loudspeakers. ... So if you go ahead ... this will be the 4th copy ...

hi Eric,

Thank you for you honnesty.... because most of the time people who like "full range" loudspeakers are not friends of such Loudspeakers with 3 speakers are high number of components in the filter ... much more than one per speaker.
I'm really proud if you like them .... and appreciate a lot your comments. .... in clear we can say that Denis did a great job !
I'm Happy to see that you were also happy tolisten to these loudspeakers.
as you mentionned it It tooks me months to finalized the design of these Astasia, and remember that you were listening the 4th version of the Filter.

another time thanks for your comments .

Best regards. - Gilles.

 

[Daze]

Hello,

I too listened to the Anastasia that Denis built and I must say, and I don't mean to throw a wrench in the discussion, but for me, this design simply did not sound so good.

Althought a lot of work went into this design, I felt it did present a good intehration of the drivers, but with an obvious lack of definition and texture. The main issu for me was the fact that textures were not very refined and harmonics were mostly missing.

I understand that the speaker is impressive in terms if dynamics, extension and sheer loudness capabilities, but to my taste it really lacked the resolution of most of the other speakers presented at this get together. It is of course a matter of taste, but I do have good ears and that tendency to obscure details, lack of resolution of the finer texture and lack of real transparency is definitely something that could be worked in this design.

I'll comment more later if I see the need,

 

[Yuli_35]

Hi Daze,

Thank you for this Feedback.

As already explained before this is the 4th version of the filter, It is possible that this xover can be improved in order to reach the level of details you mentionned.

Could you please detail more precisely the "issue".
You wrote : "textures were not very refined and harmonics were mostly missing"
Ok . do you remember on what kind of record you were listening? What istrument/voice ? and what system was playing at that time (was it the CJ + Denis's Amplifier ?)

On my side i do not focus on details too much compares to some Hifiste people, for me the life in music is much more important (foot tapping) When I say "life in music", i mean dynamic, and overall restitution. Anotherthing which is also important is the quality of the Harmonics - OR to have a low harmonic distortion. I do not yet have measure these loudspeakers in that sense, but this will be done next week.
However I didnot think that these speakers were so "poor " in Harmonics.

So next week hopefully I will comeback to you with measurement figures, and it will be much clearer for everyone.

On your side Daze, Did you present any Loudspeaker ? And if so, what kind of Loudspeaker was it ?

Thanks in advance for your "more detail feedback".

Best regards. Gilles.

 

[Daze]

Hi,

I do agree that if what you are looking for is PRAT, meaning mostly tempo and dynamics, this design does work well. My preference is for transparency, speed, imaging and focalization (quite a different direction). We did listened to all kinds of musics... where it was obvious that the Anastasia was limited in resolution was mostly with acoustic music (the Haddouk trio for example). With the Anastasia, it was a little difficult to make out the nature of the instruments. The percussions were on the other hand quite... percussive!

Of course, in the context, the Anastasia were pinned against mostly fullrange horns (Fostex 208EZ, 206ESR, Lowthers and some SEAS 2 way (very similar to the Njord)). So to me, the comparo might be unfair since the others are speed demons. Even the Njodrs had the edge in translating the details and acoustics of the recording (mainly due, I presume, because it uses a simple 1st order crossover). It could not, on the other hand, match the even-handedness of the Anastasia.

One thing though... The Anastasia needs a LOT of power to get out of the gate. The last amp we tried with them, a nice 80 watts Mosfet monster did help in giving the Anastasia a little more poise. So my thinking is, and I am just guessing, that the complexity of the crossover (and the choice of drivers) makes this design quite a difficult one to drive adequately. On the other hand, if you can find the right match in amplification, the reward is a very linear design with astounding dynamics and extension. But I doubt that even that would give it the kind of resolution that many are looking for.

You pick your preferences and make your choices. I think that the Anastasia is seriously leaning in one direction where measurements and the pursuit of linearity has created something that is VERY taste-specific. I just think that for people like me, who want to listen INTO the music - get the feeling of being there with the musician - the Anastasia falls short.

Maybe a future consideration could be to compare the same design with a simple 1st order X-O and see where compromises might be made, if ever so inclined. In its present iteration, it's not something that makes me want to stop everything and just listen. It would however, be great for parties or filling a large space with sound.

Daze

Hi Daze,

Thank you for this Feedback.

As already explained before this is the 4th version of the filter, It is possible that this xover can be improved in order to reach the level of details you mentionned.

Could you please detail more precisely the "issue".
You wrote : "textures were not very refined and harmonics were mostly missing"
Ok . do you remember on what kind of record you were listening? What istrument/voice ? and what system was playing at that time (was it the CJ + Denis's Amplifier ?)

On my side i do not focus on details too much compares to some Hifiste people, for me the life in music is much more important (foot tapping) When I say "life in music", i mean dynamic, and overall restitution. Anotherthing which is also important is the quality of the Harmonics - OR to have a low harmonic distortion. I do not yet have measure these loudspeakers in that sense, but this will be done next week.
However I didnot think that these speakers were so "poor " in Harmonics.

So next week hopefully I will comeback to you with measurement figures, and it will be much clearer for everyone.

On your side Daze, Did you present any Loudspeaker ? And if so, what kind of Loudspeaker was it ?

Thanks in advance for your "more detail feedback".

Best regards. Gilles.

 

[moiDeb]

I too was present yesterday at the DIY day. It was set up for everybody to show what they had done and not for analysis and comparison purposes.

I admit it, I'm a full range fan. We have a FE208ES set up on a tube amp at home, playing with an Exposure 3010S CD player that they used yesterday and I really like what I hear.

When we talk about comments on yesterday's components, we have to compare apples to apples. What we're looking for in a full-ranger is not the same thing as what we're looking for in a 3-way speaker. For me, in an ideal world, we'll have both.

I liked what I heard on the the Astasia. The setup for them was the same CD player, an Exposure 3010S with Denbret's equipment. I remember him mentioning he had a greatly modified Conrad Johnson, Simm Audio but I can't remember what else.

What I heard was powerful, had good mids and highs. We listened to various music that Denbret chose and we later heard them with the Hadouk Trio "Now" CD (#2 I think). I do prefer some of the additional details we pick up with the full-range but I would definitely welcome the Astasia's in the house (I think that my hubby Ulzog's going to build some).

Yuli_35, if you do make other changes and tweaks to the Astasia, the DIYers will benefit even more from what is already an excellent design. There's always room for improvement. Bravo, encore bravo pour ce design.

My 2¢

 

[jerome69]

Hello All,

I want to add some comments about this loudspeaker Astasia.

The crossover of this loudspeaker have goals :
LR2 at 500Hz and LR4 at 3000Hz. We cannot make a complex or a simple crossover. We make the right crossover to reach these goals.
I think Linkwitz Riley work is great, its job is well known and the concept has been proved. It isn't a revolutionary concept. I think this kind of filter gives a detailed sound and a good soundstage. The complexity of a crossover doesn't define the lost of details in this context.

The good phase tracking of this loudspeaker gives the dynamics and also a very coherent loudspeaker.

In conclusion, the hate/love of a loudspeaker depends on the taste of the listener

Cheers.

 

[Pendergast]

If I may?

The last 2 hours of the diy show yesterday in Montreal did not use the exposure cd player, but a shigaclone with an audiosector dac. The passage with the powerful mosfet amp used my diy cd player. That included the listening of the Hadouk Trio pieces ("Le petit cheval mopse" and "Théâtre des singes"), the Lenine song (from his first album) as well as a piece from trhe bresilian band "uakti" from their cd "Mapa". I know: I was the dj, and my Shigaclone is operated as a classic vinyl turntable...

We may want to compare apples with apples, but also, keep tab on the instruments used, and that may have had an effect on the listeners' perception.

In the morning, the exposure was used with the Astasia. But not in the afternoon, as far as I can remember.

Sincerely,

pendergast

P.S.: By the way Gilles, what is that Oscar Peterson music piece you lent to Denis that includes some cello and sounds like a lullabye?

Also, see my brief comments on the Astasia on the QAV forum

 

[fab]

If I may?

The last 2 hours of the diy show yesterday in Montreal did not use the exposure cd player, but a shigaclone with an audiosector dac. The passage with the powerful mosfet amp used my diy cd player. That included the listening of the Hadouk Trio pieces ("Le petit cheval mopse" and "Théâtre des singes"), the Lenine song (from his first album) as well as a piece from trhe bresilian band "uakti" from their cd "Mapa". I know: I was the dj, and my Shigaclone is operated as a classic vinyl turntable...

We may want to compare apples with apples, but also, keep tab on the instruments used, and that may have had an effect on the listeners' perception.

In the morning, the exposure was used with the Astasia. But not in the afternoon, as far as I can remember.

Sincerely,

pendergast

P.S.: By the way Gilles, what is that Oscar Peterson music piece you lent to Denis that includes some cello and sounds like a lullabye?

Also, see my brief comments on the Astasia on the QAV forum

Hi Pendergast

Very accurate end pertinent comments.

By the way my "powerful mosfet amp" is not that powerful since it is only 80W. I thought that powerful meant 200W or so and especially when trying to drive 86db low efficiency loudspeaker like the Astasia...


Regarding the whole set-up used with the Astasia my impression is that it was quite good

 

[Yuli_35]

Hi Daze

My answers in you text

I do agree that if what you are looking for is PRAT, meaning mostly tempo and dynamics, this design does work well. My preference is for transparency, speed, imaging and focalization (quite a different direction). We did listened to all kinds of musics... where it was obvious that the Anastasia was limited in resolution was mostly with acoustic music (the Haddouk trio for example). With the Anastasia, it was a little difficult to make out the nature of the instruments. The percussion were on the other hand quite... percussive!

>> …. I like the name “anastasia” … but in our case it is ASTASIA. (never mind no problem). Anastasia is also a cool name.
>> yesterday I read this forum as well as the “Quebec audio one” and discovered that the speakers were not placed at std listening position. As mentioned by ‘Poiram’ the Loudspeakers were placed at 12foot height ….. As you know a tweeter is directional, (even if astasia Speakers are not so prone to directionality) and in your listening test this was a major potential issue. In clear the high part of the spectrum was attenuated (I suppose). And If what I think is true … this could explain the lack of Harminics you mentionned before.
The Medium is cut at 3Khz using a LR 24dB/oct acoustical filter. So high Harmonics are reproduced by the tweeter …. This can be part of the explanation.
These loudspeaker have been designed to be listened at 3 meters and around 1m height.
If we put the pseakers higher than ground …. Then it is clear that we will cut something in the heights.

As you know the directivity of tweeters is always an issue :
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/PMS.htm

these speakers are very close to mine …. And you will see that if you scroll down the impact on the directivity versus angle.

>> this part of the explanation may not be enough …. Because other Loudpeakers should have the same issue (speaking about Loudspeakers with a Tweeter).

Of course, in the context, the Anastasia were pinned against mostly fullrange horns (Fostex 208EZ, 206ESR, Lowthers and some SEAS 2 way (very similar to the Njord)). So to me, the comparo might be unfair since the others are speed demons. Even the Njodrs had the edge in translating the details and acoustics of the recording (mainly due, I presume, because it uses a simple 1st order crossover). It could not, on the other hand, match the even-handedness of the Anastasia.

>> What I’m looking for Here … is “What do you think about these Astasia loudspeakers”. I don’t want any comparison with LB or other kind speakers. The important thing to analyse is to see how close we are from reality. Not comparing Speakers against the other. So When You said that there was an issue with some harmonics restitution, I suppose that you are familiar with concert and with instruments as Denis. And I suppose that your feeling/earing comes from the comparo with the real world and not listening to other Loudspeaker. 8-;

One thing though... The Anastasia needs a LOT of power to get out of the gate. The last amp we tried with them, a nice 80 watts Mosfet monster did help in giving the Anastasia a little more poise. So my thinking is, and I am just guessing, that the complexity of the crossover (and the choice of drivers) makes this design quite a difficult one to drive adequately. On the other hand, if you can find the right match in amplification, the reward is a very linear design with astounding dynamics and extension. But I doubt that even that would give it the kind of resolution that many are looking for.

>> On that one…. I’m going to be Clear. These Speakers can be driven by a good 20W amplifier. A Long and hard work has been done on the impedance and on the electrical phase. If you scroll on top of the topic, you will see that : http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4984/astasiaimpdance.gif
>> Maybe for you it is not clear what does that represent…. But just have a look into any magazine and you will see the difference.
>> If the impedance is flat as well as the electrical phase, then the Loudspeaker tends to be considered as a resistor (the easyiest load for an amplifier).
>> For Me these Loudspeakers does not need too much Power, they just need quality in Watt - as well as all Loudspeakers.

You pick your preferences and make your choices. I think that the Anastasia is seriously leaning in one direction where measurements and the pursuit of linearity has created something that is VERY taste-specific. I just think that for people like me, who want to listen INTO the music - get the feeling of being there with the musician - the Anastasia falls short.

>> All the work that has been done for these speakers has been driven by the search of something with minimum distortion and Flatness of the SPL. So in clear these loudspeakers ARE NOT “taste specific”. They have been designed to be as accurate as possible along the full audio spectrum. Compares to your speakers without tweeters, and I doubt that they are “accurate” over the whole audio spectrum. Unfortunately I was not there to listen. Obviously if you compares your speakers to the Astasia, it is clear that there is a lot of difference. But as mentioned earlier, the objective here is not to compare Loudspeakers against others.
However I can understand that this conception was not of your taste. And as always in Hifi, Everybody needs to eat….

Maybe a future consideration could be to compare the same design with a simple 1st order X-O and see where compromises might be made, if ever so inclined. In its present iteration, it's not something that makes me want to stop everything and just listen. It would however, be great for parties or filling a large space with sound.

>> the Filter has been done in dorder to minimize the distorsion. Each Speaker do not run more than 3-3.5 Octaves. All the measurement have been considered to determine the Fc of the Xover as well as the Slope of the filter.
>> I don’t say that using a lower filter order will not sound good, but there is a high risk to have much higher distortion along the whole spectrum.


Brgds Gilles.

 

[Yuli_35]

Hi Deb,

Thank you for your point of view and appreciate a lot your comments knowing that you are a Large Band "adept".

As already mentioned that I suspect the lack of definition to come from the placement of the loudspeakers….

You are right … nothing is perfect … and especially in hifi.
This week I’m going to see “Jerome69”, we will listen to the loudspeakers and will analyse them as much as possible (with a very good 50W amplifier ). Maybe a new tweak will be proposed …. We will see.

Hi Pendergast,

Your comments are a “goldmine”.
I don’t like to compare Loudspeakers against others, However, if we go that way we have to be consistent in the methodology…. And use the same source/pre/amplifier/cables ….

I Love this OSCAR PETERSON track….. this one of my test “track”
Oscar Peterson - We get request – Track N°6 ….

Hi Fab,

Thanks for you comment too….
“Quite good” … is something Like in term of appreciation..; meaning that the road is difficult.

Regarding the amp, I just can tell you that a good 50W drives them more than correctly. But that is another story.

Thanks and best regards gilles.

 

[Daze]

Hi,
If you don’t mind, I would also like to clarify a few things. (BTW, please understand that I am in no way trying to be rude, just honest and forthright. I’m already getting a bit of flack for expressing my view… so please don’t all be so sensitive)

>> yesterday I read this forum as well as the “Quebec audio one” and discovered that the speakers were not placed at std listening position. As mentioned by ‘Poiram’ the Loudspeakers were placed at 12foot height ….. As you know a tweeter is directional, (even if astasia Speakers are not so prone to directionality) and in your listening test this was a major potential issue. In clear the high part of the spectrum was attenuated (I suppose). And If what I think is true … this could explain the lack of Harminics you mentionned before.
The Medium is cut at 3Khz using a LR 24dB/oct acoustical filter. So high Harmonics are reproduced by the tweeter …. This can be part of the explanation.
These loudspeaker have been designed to be listened at 3 meters and around 1m height.
If we put the pseakers higher than ground …. Then it is clear that we will cut something in the heights.

As you know the directivity of tweeters is always an issue :
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/PMS.htm

these speakers are very close to mine …. And you will see that if you scroll down the impact on the directivity versus angle.

>> this part of the explanation may not be enough …. Because other Loudpeakers should have the same issue (speaking about Loudspeakers with a Tweeter).




ANSWER:
Let me make a correction : The speakers were not 12 ft high (!?). They were sitting on a stage about 1.5 foot high. Listeners were sitting in average about 2.5 to 5 meters away. To me, the setup was fine. The tweeters were more or less at ear level for those standing up, and just above ear level for those sitting. Speaker placement was not an issue. Yes… I DO know all about tweeter directivity issues… (even for tweeters like those on the Astasia where the manufacturer’s claim is of even dispersion).

>> What I’m looking for Here … is “What do you think about these Astasia loudspeakers”. I don’t want any comparison with LB or other kind speakers. The important thing to analyse is to see how close we are from reality. Not comparing Speakers against the other. So When You said that there was an issue with some harmonics restitution, I suppose that you are familiar with concert and with instruments as Denis. And I suppose that your feeling/earing comes from the comparo with the real world and not listening to other Loudspeaker. 8-;




ANSWER:
Please, don’t be so presumtuous. I trust my ears AND my intelligence. I’ve used several seasons tickets to The Metropolitain Orchestra and regularly go to concerts. I’ve for example had lately the privilege to attend concerts ranging from Il Giardino Armonico (on period instruments) to the full scale reproduction of Carmina Burana. I also know very well how to evaluate speaker and other gear (I’ve been building and evaluating gear for more time than I dare to say). I don’t think you can undermind my objectivity here… sorry.
If what you want is (and I quote) “What do you think about these Astasia loudspeakers?”, then I already told you; I don’t find they sound so good… to me, they just don’t reproduce the ESSENCE of the music. The midrange (where 80% of the music lies) is thick and lacks transparency. In the end, it is no so much a question of taste, it is what I believe clearly came out of the demonstration. I try to explain why, but you just keep arguing. I understand that it’s you baby, but If you don’t want to hear it, then why ask..?

>> On that one…. I’m going to be Clear. These Speakers can be driven by a good 20W amplifier. A Long and hard work has been done on the impedance and on the electrical phase. If you scroll on top of the topic, you will see that : http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/4984/astasiaimpdance.gif
>> Maybe for you it is not clear what does that represent…. But just have a look into any magazine and you will see the difference.
>> If the impedance is flat as well as the electrical phase, then the Loudspeaker tends to be considered as a resistor (the easyiest load for an amplifier).
>> For Me these Loudspeakers does not need too much Power, they just need quality in Watt - as well as all Loudspeakers.




ANSWER:
Well, let me disagree (again) on this one. To me, and with the limited experience I had with them, they EAT power like crazy (like Totems, Dynaudio, KEF studio monitors and others). Maybe a VERY good 25 watts (Like a Classé DR3VHC or a good 845/211 tube triode amp). You seem to base your arguments on theory, simulations and measurements. When I actually LISTENED to them with various amps, they without a doubt sound like they need much more power. Of course, they will play with even 5 watts, but the results will suffer and it will not give justice to their potential.

>> All the work that has been done for these speakers has been driven by the search of something with minimum distortion and Flatness of the SPL. So in clear these loudspeakers ARE NOT “taste specific”. They have been designed to be as accurate as possible along the full audio spectrum. Compares to your speakers without tweeters, and I doubt that they are “accurate” over the whole audio spectrum. Unfortunately I was not there to listen. Obviously if you compares your speakers to the Astasia, it is clear that there is a lot of difference. But as mentioned earlier, the objective here is not to compare Loudspeakers against others.
However I can understand that this conception was not of your taste. And as always in Hifi, Everybody needs to eat….




ANSWER:
From my experience, linearity and low THD will NOT tell you how a speaker sounds. It looks very good on paper, but it has many times been demonstrated that specs have very little to do with how they will actually sound. If i twas the case, then I know of dozens of High-end manufacturers models that could claim perfection. Few of those even come close (in some instances, they are simply horrible). Most of the best speakers that I know have been designed and tuned by ear (so claimed by their designers). Of course, you need a conceptual starting point, but listening will guide you more than any specs or measurements. We don’t design HIFI gear to be played to SPICE or spectrum analyzers. We design them to be played to people to enjoy music.

>> the Filter has been done in dorder to minimize the distorsion. Each Speaker do not run more than 3-3.5 Octaves. All the measurement have been considered to determine the Fc of the Xover as well as the Slope of the filter.
>> I don’t say that using a lower filter order will not sound good, but there is a high risk to have much higher distortion along the whole spectrum.



ANSWER:
OK… let me put this one to you : If lower THD was a such an important factor in music reproduction… maybe we should all just listen to Solid-State amps and headphones. Tube amps would all be out! Electrostatic panels should all be avoided! Vinyls should be banned forever! All horns be burned in a heep… Get my drift?
The Astasia is not a bad speaker. It is impressive, big, bold, extended, dynamic… It just does not have very good transparency in the midrange. This lack of definition just does not highligt the distinction between various instruments. It is my only expressed criticism of this design. Maybe the next generation will prove that it can be fixed. Are you up to the challenge or would you rather cover your ears and leave it as it is? Like I said, it’s your baby. You do what you want with it. I just thought this design merits a good objective criticism.
Peace.

 

[Yuli_35]

Ok Daze, i will not come back on all the points you raise in order to avoid finally a never ending and sterile discussion.

I clearly see that you did not like these loudspeakers. that is a fact and I accept it.

We do not have the same approach, And I don't want to jump into the technical aspects as you refuse them.

thank you for your feedback, because if there was only happy people listening to these loudspeaker this would be STRANGE.

Best Regards.

 

[NyxOne]

Hi Yuli,

i just want to say that i had the opportunity to listen to your realization through Denis and i really liked them.

I didn't expected them to have that MUCH bass! It felt like there was a subwoofer in the room! Really impressive.

The midrange was sweet like candy and the hight smooth like butter! Delicious!!

Seriously, i didn't felt like their was something missing due to crossover or drivers selection and frankly i don't think a loudspeaker can be evaluated in the context we were... swapping amp, speaker, cd player and turn table every now and then ...

Anyway, i think that most people were really impressed!!!

Two thumbs up!
Chuck