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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Hi-End and Hi-Efficency loudspeakers (horn + onken)
Hi-End and Hi-Efficency loudspeakers (horn + onken)
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Old 6th March 2009, 12:47 PM   #1
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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Default Hi-End and Hi-Efficency loudspeakers (horn + onken)

Who produce these midrange ?
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/duomega/upgrade.html

----

I am starting a project using the Beyma CP380M compression driver with this horn:
http://www.stereo-lab.de/tractrix.html
cf600 1" model

As woofer probably I will use this 15" in onken box
IMG StageLine SP-15A/402PA

http://www.monacor.de/typo3/index.ph...1&spr=IT&typ=u

crossover 800Hz - 12 or 18db/oct
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Old 6th March 2009, 12:55 PM   #2
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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I have choiced the IMG StageLine SP-15A/402PA because it is very linear also in medium frequency band.
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Old 6th March 2009, 06:39 PM   #3
angeloitacare is offline angeloitacare  Brazil
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Default Davis....

hi Andrea

the midrange, Avantgarde uses in the Duo Omega, is from Davis, custom built on their specs.

http://www.toutlehautparleur.com/kev...tk8-p-604.html

http://www.audiovoice-acoustics.com/...2&d=1234209106
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Old 9th March 2009, 08:24 PM   #4
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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Started the woofer search

http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiEf...erCompare.html

The SP387/300NEO is very cheap and good.
100-120 euro

Other ideas ?
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Old 10th March 2009, 06:32 AM   #5
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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This project born to create a good loudspeaker with very high efficiency and low cost.
To reduce the cost has been decided to use only 2 drivers with the lower crossover frequency possible.
A valid design of this type could be the BassZilla (here the complete project) but it is not cheap because F208ES need a tweeter and Lowther DX3 or DX55 are very expensive.
So I have decided to start with a 2 way using a compression driver loaded by a good horn and a 15" woofer to get high efficiency and good low frequency band.
To limit the cost I have decided to use 1" driver with an 800Hz crossover.
As horn has been used a good Tractrix model of the www.stereo-lab.de series.
The Beyma CP380M compression driver has been the first choice because it have a low distortion and a very linear frequency band.
Many DIY prefer this driver to other components because the sound of CP380M is very natural if compared to other compression driver (see http://www.speakerplans.com/FORUM/fo...TID=13807&PN=3 or http://nullspace.us/tt12.html or http://www.speakerplans.com/Forum/fo....asp?TID=10871).
About the woofer we need a 15" with:
- a linear frequency band until 3-4KHz to prevent problem after the crossover frequency
- a moving mass no more than 90 gr to be fast
- a sensitivity near to 100dB
- a low resonant Frequency to have a good bass frequency band

See my starting search and give me suggestion about these.
http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiEf...erCompare.html
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Old 10th March 2009, 06:41 AM   #6
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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- thiele-small parameters to be fit in a max 150-160lt reflex or sealed box
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Old 12th March 2009, 01:02 PM   #7
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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news

http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiEf...erCompare.html
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Old 12th March 2009, 03:28 PM   #8
DaveCan is offline DaveCan  Canada
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Would this 15 work? http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=4

Dave
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Old 12th March 2009, 03:37 PM   #9
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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I cannot find the frequency response for this driver
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Old 12th March 2009, 06:27 PM   #10
Brett is offline Brett
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Quote:
Originally posted by audiodesign
This project born to create a good loudspeaker with very high efficiency and low cost.
To reduce the cost has been decided to use only 2 drivers with the lower crossover frequency possible.
A valid design of this type could be the BassZilla (here the complete project) but it is not cheap because F208ES need a tweeter and Lowther DX3 or DX55 are very expensive.
So I have decided to start with a 2 way using a compression driver loaded by a good horn and a 15" woofer to get high efficiency and good low frequency band.
To limit the cost I have decided to use 1" driver with an 800Hz crossover.
As horn has been used a good Tractrix model of the www.stereo-lab.de series.
The Beyma CP380M compression driver has been the first choice because it have a low distortion and a very linear frequency band.
Many DIY prefer this driver to other components because the sound of CP380M is very natural if compared to other compression driver (see http://www.speakerplans.com/FORUM/fo...TID=13807&PN=3 or http://nullspace.us/tt12.html or http://www.speakerplans.com/Forum/fo....asp?TID=10871).
About the woofer we need a 15" with:
- a linear frequency band until 3-4KHz to prevent problem after the crossover frequency
- a moving mass no more than 90 gr to be fast
- a sensitivity near to 100dB
- a low resonant Frequency to have a good bass frequency band

See my starting search and give me suggestion about these.
http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiEf...erCompare.html
A few things cross my mind when I read this, so I'll start at the bottom.

You seem to be focussed on low mass as a design priority, so maybe you should read these.
Dan Wiggins on Woofer Speed
Nick McKinney's take

I would concentrate on how the driver responds at the top of it's band.
High efficiency drivers often do not have very good LF as that is the tradeoff that happens in the Pro world where most of them are used. I have no experience with Onkens, but I have a hunch they will be a big box.

The AE's are excellent drivers, better made than any pro units that I've seen, and I've used a very large number of them.
Here is the only FR curve I can find, but email John and he may be able to send you more.
TD15M

Modelling the drivers of interest will let you know how they're going to work at LF, but you need to consider other fsctors as I mentioned at the top of the passband.

The CP380M is an excellent driver and one of my favourites. I have never used it as low as 800Hz, so I cannot say whether it will perform there or not. They may need to be crossed steeply or not given much power.

From your link to the Tractix horns, I presume you mean the 400Hz versions? trax horns do not really load the driver until about 1.4x the flare frequency in my experience and a 400Hz flare is going to beam very badly at HF.
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Old 12th March 2009, 07:35 PM   #11
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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I don't see valid elements to consider the TD15M

http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiEff/Sim3.gif
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Old 12th March 2009, 07:46 PM   #12
inertial is offline inertial  Italy
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Hi Andrea,


A 15" + 1" ..... Why not take example from Summa loudspeaker( Dr. Geddes)?

Cheers,
Paolo
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Old 12th March 2009, 07:47 PM   #13
Brett is offline Brett
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Quote:
Originally posted by audiodesign
I don't see valid elements to consider the TD15M

http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiEff/Sim3.gif
You are only looking at the LF response. Read what I wrote earlier and look at motor designs.
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Old 12th March 2009, 08:07 PM   #14
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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Summa loudspeaker use a 15TBX100.

not bad on low freq but with a strange peak on high freq. very difficul to compensate with low order filter
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Old 12th March 2009, 08:09 PM   #15
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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Using the TD15M are necessary 160 lt to obtain the same result of other woofer in 100 lt.

What you mean about the good motor of this TD15M ?
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Old 12th March 2009, 08:11 PM   #16
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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Summa loudspeaker use a 15TBX100 with only 95db
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Old 12th March 2009, 08:17 PM   #17
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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Not bad the frequency response of the Suma HF driver
http://www.bcspeakers.com/PDF/PRD/DE250.pdf

Someone have compare the sound with Beyma CP380M ?
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Old 13th March 2009, 02:41 AM   #18
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by inertial
Hi Andrea,

A 15" + 1" ..... Why not take example from Summa loudspeaker( Dr. Geddes)?

Cheers,
Paolo
I thought that sounded familiar!


Quote:
Originally posted by audiodesign
Summa loudspeaker use a 15TBX100.

not bad on low freq but with a strange peak on high freq. very difficul to compensate with low order filter
Then don't use a low order filter.

Quote:
Originally posted by audiodesign
Summa loudspeaker use a 15TBX100 with only 95db
B&C says 96 dB, and you can believe that. With a lot of companies you can't trust the data sheets. With B&C you can. Living in Italy I can't understand why you wouldn't use their products as they are exceptional.
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Old 13th March 2009, 04:10 AM   #19
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee


Living in Italy I can't understand why you wouldn't use their products as they are exceptional.

Or use FaitalPro, or maybe RCF
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Old 13th March 2009, 04:52 AM   #20
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Yes, there are so many good drivers made in Italy.
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Old 13th March 2009, 05:51 AM   #21
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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I am searching fo this project a a 15" with
:
- a linear frequency band until 3-4KHz to prevent problem after the crossover frequency

- a moving mass no more than 90 gr

- a sensitivity near to 100dB

- a low resonant Frequency to have a good bass frequency band

I have found only the drivers analized in the webpage.

If there is a peak in the frequency response it is possible to esclude this only with 18dB or 24dB order filter because with a common 12dB this will keep in voice band.
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Old 13th March 2009, 10:37 AM   #22
inertial is offline inertial  Italy
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Quote:
Originally posted by audiodesign
I am searching fo this project a a 15" with
:
- a linear frequency band until 3-4KHz to prevent problem after the crossover frequency

- a moving mass no more than 90 gr

- a sensitivity near to 100dB

- a low resonant Frequency to have a good bass frequency band

I have found only the drivers analized in the webpage.
All those things together? And perhaps also into a " cheap" woofer ? :-)
Anyway, becoming serious, if you have a 100 dB- 15" with 90 gr or less Mms and with low Fs, automatically Qts will be low . Thus no (extreme) bass.

Quote:
[i]
If there is a peak in the frequency response it is possible to esclude this only with 18dB or 24dB order filter because with a common 12dB this will keep in voice band. [/B]
Excuse me, why not employ a LCR trap instead ?

Cheers,
Paolo
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Old 13th March 2009, 10:51 AM   #23
inertial is offline inertial  Italy
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I would be so curious to listen a pair of Summa ( or Nathan/Abbey)..........Dr Geddes, is there no one person here in Italy
that has one of your famous speakers?

Cheers,
Paolo
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Old 13th March 2009, 11:22 AM   #24
audiodesign is offline audiodesign  Italy
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Paolo,
look here, I have found some 15" with these characteristics

http://www.audiodesignguide.com/HiEf...erCompare.html
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Old 13th March 2009, 12:58 PM   #25
inertial is offline inertial  Italy
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Been there , Andrea.

Are you sure all those graphs are in the same measurements conditions?
To my eyes some are 2pistr and others (maybe) can be 4pistr .....

Moreover Fs says a little if not coupled at least with Qts when you have to extimate F-3dB point.

P.S. : IMO Dr. Geddes is right, B&C are very good drivers. Unfortunately in Italy the price is .....not aligned with States!

Cheers,
Paolo
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