Andy, That 10 inch cheapie from Jaycar intrigues me. Do you have the actual measurements handy? If it doesn't need much volume, it could be fun to run two pair of these!
OK I have spent much of the day modeling all the suggestions offered so far. Well all but the ones Andy just posted about from Wes. (I live in Ashfield, who would have thought...) I have seen a lot of interesting stuff, and have a lot of potential candidates. So far I keep coming back to the Visaton TIW 300. Any opinions on this woofer?
All the Visaton stuff looks very well damped, they look like they will fit in small enclosures, but it is difficult to obtain an F3 below the mid 40s. That is until I tweaked Qes just a touch. Now I can easily get the TIW 300 down to 30 Hz. This should be a good candidate for playing with the output impedance of the woofer amp. WIth this tweak the box size is a bit larger than I was originally targeting, but for a quality 12 inch driver, I expect it is well worth it. (Oops, sorry honey, I measured wrong!)
I am also thinking to keep the HDS tweet, and upgrade the mid to the 5" HDS exclusive.
OK I have spent much of the day modeling all the suggestions offered so far. Well all but the ones Andy just posted about from Wes. (I live in Ashfield, who would have thought...) I have seen a lot of interesting stuff, and have a lot of potential candidates. So far I keep coming back to the Visaton TIW 300. Any opinions on this woofer?
All the Visaton stuff looks very well damped, they look like they will fit in small enclosures, but it is difficult to obtain an F3 below the mid 40s. That is until I tweaked Qes just a touch. Now I can easily get the TIW 300 down to 30 Hz. This should be a good candidate for playing with the output impedance of the woofer amp. WIth this tweak the box size is a bit larger than I was originally targeting, but for a quality 12 inch driver, I expect it is well worth it. (Oops, sorry honey, I measured wrong!)
I am also thinking to keep the HDS tweet, and upgrade the mid to the 5" HDS exclusive.
Yes
Bob McCarthy describes this relationship in terms of the relationship of wavelength in question and phase shift between 2 sources and the proximity to each other.
From near 0 degree phase shift (closest possible spacing that physics allows ) you get 6db gain, as the separation incurs phase shift, the gain reduces until @ 120 degrees of shift, it is 0db gain, and when it reaches 180 degree you get full cancellation ( destructive interference )
Member
Joined 2003
Hello Habanero and welcome!
I thought you may be interested in having a look at my project here: A new project: HDS Peerless towers.
This project shows that you can use the 8" Peerless HDS and the HDS tweeter in a 2-way configuration without the need for a midrange. This may be something to consider in your design, if you haven't considered this possibility already.
I thought you may be interested in having a look at my project here: A new project: HDS Peerless towers.
This project shows that you can use the 8" Peerless HDS and the HDS tweeter in a 2-way configuration without the need for a midrange. This may be something to consider in your design, if you haven't considered this possibility already.
habanero said:
they don't need a lot of volume, but unless you can measure the t/s specs (I don't have any measured ones,sorry) it will be diffcult to work .. sort of trial and error on the port tuning
As for the power distribution thing. Here is a simple spreadsheet I wrote a while ago, based on data from the Fane sound reinforcement handbook.
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~gradds55/powercalc.xls
The alignment I mentioned uses an auxiliary filter that raises the "kp" from the standard 3 for a bass reflex to around 6, this doubles the acoustic power output by limiting the out of band excursion.
Mutual coupling adds three decibels and double the power handling another three, a total of nine.
rcw.
Mutual coupling adds three decibels and double the power handling another three, a total of nine.
rcw.
HK26147 said:
Last time I threw a big party, I hired two Australian Monitors, a PA system with twin 15 inch woofers. We ran it off a 1000 W PA amp that a friend has. It was a long weekend, so the gear wasn't due back until Tuesday morning. We were still playing loud Monday night! And yes we did overheat the amp at one point.
However, don't get the wrong idea, I'm not trying to build a PA... yet. I've since moved, and I doubt my new neighbors are quite as tolerant. All I want is a system that sounds terrific at a variety of levels, and will make me proud when it is called apon to "do it's duty".
My flatmate from before the move, was really keen to replace his dynaudio 10 inch system with a 15 inch electrovoice system. We worked hard to convince him that this was a bad idea. It's not that we didn't want the system. We did. The problem would have been that we would listen to it all the time. And I do want some of my hearing to last through my middle age.
However, I can still live vicariously through him. He's still keen for a PA, and I'm thinking he may want to take a look at the lambda TD15S.
Your Bio said you liked Tecno.
From my limited familiarity with how Techno, is recorded - I figured that the power distribution weighs heavily on the bass octaves. I also figured that the median level stays as they say "close to the red". Perhaps with a 6 to 10db dynamic range after Mastering.
The Rocky Mountain Auto Fest did a demo in a relatively small hotel exhibit room, playing music at realistic ( not unpleasant ) levels, through speakers of est. 89db sensitivity. The average power read 1 - 2 watts, while peak power often topped 250W.
Because of the crest factor on some recorded music can be that extreme, I focus on keeping my driver sensitivity as high as possible.
In a home I wouldn't sacrifice the quality of an optimized system for the very high SPL of a PA either.
For the home I tend to favor smaller monitors on stands with a mono sub source vs 2 large full range floor-standers for a variety of reasons, including SAF.
BTW You didn't mention the dimensions of the room ( small/large ) and it's acoustics - this of course is an important part of the equation.
From my limited familiarity with how Techno, is recorded - I figured that the power distribution weighs heavily on the bass octaves. I also figured that the median level stays as they say "close to the red". Perhaps with a 6 to 10db dynamic range after Mastering.
The Rocky Mountain Auto Fest did a demo in a relatively small hotel exhibit room, playing music at realistic ( not unpleasant ) levels, through speakers of est. 89db sensitivity. The average power read 1 - 2 watts, while peak power often topped 250W.
Because of the crest factor on some recorded music can be that extreme, I focus on keeping my driver sensitivity as high as possible.
In a home I wouldn't sacrifice the quality of an optimized system for the very high SPL of a PA either.
For the home I tend to favor smaller monitors on stands with a mono sub source vs 2 large full range floor-standers for a variety of reasons, including SAF.
BTW You didn't mention the dimensions of the room ( small/large ) and it's acoustics - this of course is an important part of the equation.
Good point, the room is small roughly 4m by 6m, and double brick. 8 inch woofers have always sounded great here. This is primarily the reason I had convinced myself that the 8 inch three way would satisfy me, and not leave me as poor. But I have a much larger space where I will move them to for parties, so bigger speakers will get used. Apart from cost, my biggest reservation about bigger speakers is that they will take up too much space in such a small room.
I do have a sub (much smaller than yours!), and while it is very clean sounding (REL), it has never blown me away. Even bigger subs I've heard haven't blown me away. Maybe it's positioning and acoustics, which I know is important to avoid cancellation with subs, but the bass doesn't seem as immediate as direct radiation. Still, in this sized room I reckon the smaller three way + sub will probably satisfy.... probably.
I suspect that subs aren't critical for techno, although this will vary considerably between artists and genres. Techno is usually mixed to sound good on PAs, and while drum and bass (not a fan!) makes heavy use of subs, I've heard that most PAs are optimized for 50 Hz and above. My sub doesn't get too much of a workout crossed at 42 Hz. One of the main reasons I like electronic music is because synthesizers offer such an extraordinarily varied sonic palate, ridiculously bass heavy music tires me. Balance is important, yin/yang, all that stuff.
I do have a sub (much smaller than yours!), and while it is very clean sounding (REL), it has never blown me away. Even bigger subs I've heard haven't blown me away. Maybe it's positioning and acoustics, which I know is important to avoid cancellation with subs, but the bass doesn't seem as immediate as direct radiation. Still, in this sized room I reckon the smaller three way + sub will probably satisfy.... probably.
I suspect that subs aren't critical for techno, although this will vary considerably between artists and genres. Techno is usually mixed to sound good on PAs, and while drum and bass (not a fan!) makes heavy use of subs, I've heard that most PAs are optimized for 50 Hz and above. My sub doesn't get too much of a workout crossed at 42 Hz. One of the main reasons I like electronic music is because synthesizers offer such an extraordinarily varied sonic palate, ridiculously bass heavy music tires me. Balance is important, yin/yang, all that stuff.
DcibeL, your speakers look terrific. Very Elegant. The size is somewhat similar to the 830884 3way I was working up, probably because they seem to align well at 57 L. I was looking to go shorter and squater though, probably no taller than 950, 900 if I can get away with it. I like you baffles, very reminiscent of ATC entry series. I'm a huge fan of ATC. In-fact, if I had the budget right now I would do an almost exact rip-off of the ATC SCM-50A SL Tower. It's a very similar size to what I would like to build, but the drivers are a lot dearer.
Andy G said:
Wow. I had not noticed they were identical. Funny that the quoted specs are different, although having modelled a couple now, the differences don't seem to impact the enclosure much.
Here is what I'm having a hard time understanding. Using the QB3 alignment table for losses of 7 thingumy-jiggers:
Is there some super compact alignment I am not aware of? Or is this simply a case of dodgy marketing practices?
habanero said:
You can count on it. I have a trade account with WES who are the Australian distributor for Tymphany drivers and trade prices were always listed and very stable. The November price list for these drivers now shows "POA" which indicates a rise and currency based day by day. The drivers I enquired about this week were up 30% so it's begun.
I was in Jaycar shopping yesterday, BIG sign in window expect their retail prices to increase by a minimum of 15-18% December Oh !!Wait!! it is now December.
The older Jaycar woofers that Andy used in "Blackwood" sound better than the new yellow 10's get some of those if you can, If you want a cheap 8inch for a sealed box Jaycar are closing out their high power>> polycone driver, bit small for me ( I prefer 10's and 12's as woofers ) but I had a pair in a sealed 25litre box and it wasn't too bad at all, and if you can find any they are about $25 each now ( my local store has 3 left ( as of Wednesday)
You could try side mounting a bigger woofer better WAF as you still have the narrow front, but dual 8's used to work for me in medium to small rooms.
Regards
Ted
The older Jaycar woofers that Andy used in "Blackwood" sound better than the new yellow 10's get some of those if you can, If you want a cheap 8inch for a sealed box Jaycar are closing out their high power>> polycone driver, bit small for me ( I prefer 10's and 12's as woofers ) but I had a pair in a sealed 25litre box and it wasn't too bad at all, and if you can find any they are about $25 each now ( my local store has 3 left ( as of Wednesday)
You could try side mounting a bigger woofer better WAF as you still have the narrow front, but dual 8's used to work for me in medium to small rooms.
Regards
Ted
I'd like to thank everyone who has provided input in this thread. It really has helped me to make a decision that I had previously struggled with for some time. Despite minimal info on the net, and a really high price tag, I have purchased two Visaton TIW 300 woofers. I did always want a 12 inch, but did not expect to find one in Australia that had Q low enough to fit my living room.
Once I found the woofer, the decision was relatively easy. I got into DIY because I wanted the opportunity to make something truly exciting. You will be hearing from me again.
Lee
Once I found the woofer, the decision was relatively easy. I got into DIY because I wanted the opportunity to make something truly exciting. You will be hearing from me again.
Lee
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