For comparison's sake I've had this speaker for about 1 1/2 years now.
Scanspeak 6600
Dayton RS52
Dual Scanspeak 21w/8554, ported to 40hz in 3cu foot box
My new speaker using the XG18 which I'm actively trying to get "right" is now:
Scanspeak 6600
Dual XG18's in MTM with scan tweeter
Single Scanspeak 22W/4851T woofer, 2 cu foot sealed (sealed for now)
I went with dual XG18's based a comment from Zaph that the low-end bass and limited excursion needed some help by using dual drivers. My intent was to experiment with crossovers for the XG18 in the 200-800 hz range.
Now I'm lamenting building the box MTM style. Was this a waste to use two drivers given that I'm going to use a fairly capable 8" Revelator for the bottom end?
Instead of MTMW should I have built the box TMMW?
Comparing the two systems crossed at 800hz/2300hz I'd be hard pressed to pick a "winner". The XG18 system has a bit better drum sound and a little warmer presentation.
Anyone think a set of 5-1/2" Scanspeak Revelator's would have worked better in place of the XG18's?
In the end, I'm thinking if a single RS52 can sound so close to the dual XG18's then why did I use two of them. Should have been able to get away with one, a smaller box, and maybe better sound.
Scanspeak 6600
Dayton RS52
Dual Scanspeak 21w/8554, ported to 40hz in 3cu foot box
My new speaker using the XG18 which I'm actively trying to get "right" is now:
Scanspeak 6600
Dual XG18's in MTM with scan tweeter
Single Scanspeak 22W/4851T woofer, 2 cu foot sealed (sealed for now)
I went with dual XG18's based a comment from Zaph that the low-end bass and limited excursion needed some help by using dual drivers. My intent was to experiment with crossovers for the XG18 in the 200-800 hz range.
Now I'm lamenting building the box MTM style. Was this a waste to use two drivers given that I'm going to use a fairly capable 8" Revelator for the bottom end?
Instead of MTMW should I have built the box TMMW?
Comparing the two systems crossed at 800hz/2300hz I'd be hard pressed to pick a "winner". The XG18 system has a bit better drum sound and a little warmer presentation.
Anyone think a set of 5-1/2" Scanspeak Revelator's would have worked better in place of the XG18's?
In the end, I'm thinking if a single RS52 can sound so close to the dual XG18's then why did I use two of them. Should have been able to get away with one, a smaller box, and maybe better sound.
You may find that in its role the XG18 bass response is a moot point when you already have a dedicated bass driver in the system. 800Hz is a bit high for the XG18 (i.e. a waste). Aim for 200Hz, and have the lower end of the mid range covered by a single driver, which should yield seemless midrange down there. Also, check at what frequency the 22W starts beaming, and try to get the XG18 to cover this frequency.
Personally, I would have gone TMW, but with a larger woofer (10" or 12") or TMWW, with 2x 8" woofers. If you have the budget, WMTMW is another option. However, I'm sure that your present configuration can be made to work well. What in particular are you dissatisfied with? How are you going about doing the design (acoustic measurements, Xo design software?).
Personally, I would have gone TMW, but with a larger woofer (10" or 12") or TMWW, with 2x 8" woofers. If you have the budget, WMTMW is another option. However, I'm sure that your present configuration can be made to work well. What in particular are you dissatisfied with? How are you going about doing the design (acoustic measurements, Xo design software?).
I think the intention of running MTM with the XG18 was to overcome a perceived shortfall in power handling when doing lower bass but if that's being handled by another driver, I'd only use 1.... TMW.
It's a shame the XG18 is disappearing (gone from Tymphany site AFAIK) as it does have great mids and not shabby on the bass. I use it in a TM with the Peerless 810921 tweeter and it's sweet. Never had an issue with power handling but I don't listen at ear splitting volumes.
I also have speakers running 18W8531G00 and the XG18 is not shamed at all and in fact holds it's own very well and better in some respects in smoothness and warmth IMO.
It's a shame the XG18 is disappearing (gone from Tymphany site AFAIK) as it does have great mids and not shabby on the bass. I use it in a TM with the Peerless 810921 tweeter and it's sweet. Never had an issue with power handling but I don't listen at ear splitting volumes.
I also have speakers running 18W8531G00 and the XG18 is not shamed at all and in fact holds it's own very well and better in some respects in smoothness and warmth IMO.
Shaun:
My thinking was that I liked the sound of the RS52 in my original TMWW.
Wanting to try something new, I looked at drivers that looked suitable for midrange on Zaph's site. The other driver that was mentioned as a low distortion midrange was the XG18 (albeit somewhat large for this purpose). Its distortion graphs looked like what I wanted. And Zaph had built an MTM design some time back. In following posts on the Net it became apparent that some people had measured large distortion on the XG18 when run full range. But I didn't plan to use it as anything but midrange.
Now the fun starts. The XG18 being somewhat large needed a much lower crossover to prevent beaming. Zaph crossed over at 1700hz and I may try that with the 6600. Its just that both the Seas Millenium and Scan 6600 both sound distressed to my ears run that low. I just don't like the sound of tweeters below 2kz and in general over the years I've always preferred about 2200hz.
So I have the upper point for the XG18 at 2200hz. I now search for where to transition to the large scanspeak. I initially listen to the XG18 rolled off at from 200 to 800hz. It seems to sound pretty good down to at least 400 hz. Now I'm wondering about the wisdom of crossing over in the middle of the vocal range. And I realize that I haven't been able to take the XG18 much lower than the 600hz I could have crossed the RS52 at.
Imaging of the RS52 seems superior to the XG18. Tweeter and RS52 seem to blend transparently. Less so with the XG18. And the sound is similar now to 2-way speakers. But here's the problem. The XG18 crossed at 200-400hz seems like a pain. My buddy Jake as 5 1/2" Revelators down to 40-ish hz ported in an MTM. And his bass is truly wonderful.
So the project basically started with the thought that the XG18 was somehow a really superior midrange. Zaph commented on how it was one of the nicest he had heard (at least a few years back).
Rabbitz: Yes, I've read posts talking about the XG18 as a "distortion generator". I suspect that's when its used full range.
Initially, the XG18 sound is almost too smooth. Perhaps I've gotten used to the mid-dome sound of the RS52. One thing is that the much larger driver does make drums sound much more realistic. I'll give the nod to the XG18 on that.
Its reassuring to hear someone say that the XG18 holds its own with the 18W8531G00. I was starting to have builders remorse.
sreten:
How does 200 to 800hz sound wrong to you? The XG18 appears to be a distortion generator on Zaph's graphs below 100hz. It starts sounding wimpy below 200hz to me. But then I've been listening to dual 8" drivers for a few years.
All: I want to save this project, but what's bugging me is that the sound isn't at least equalling my old project. I liked the sound of Scanspeak woofers. The Aircirc tweeter is my current favorite. And the XG18 seemed to be a good value compared to Revelator 5 1/2" drivers in terms of price. The XG18 is like 1/3rd the cost of a Revelator.
My thinking was that I liked the sound of the RS52 in my original TMWW.
Wanting to try something new, I looked at drivers that looked suitable for midrange on Zaph's site. The other driver that was mentioned as a low distortion midrange was the XG18 (albeit somewhat large for this purpose). Its distortion graphs looked like what I wanted. And Zaph had built an MTM design some time back. In following posts on the Net it became apparent that some people had measured large distortion on the XG18 when run full range. But I didn't plan to use it as anything but midrange.
Now the fun starts. The XG18 being somewhat large needed a much lower crossover to prevent beaming. Zaph crossed over at 1700hz and I may try that with the 6600. Its just that both the Seas Millenium and Scan 6600 both sound distressed to my ears run that low. I just don't like the sound of tweeters below 2kz and in general over the years I've always preferred about 2200hz.
So I have the upper point for the XG18 at 2200hz. I now search for where to transition to the large scanspeak. I initially listen to the XG18 rolled off at from 200 to 800hz. It seems to sound pretty good down to at least 400 hz. Now I'm wondering about the wisdom of crossing over in the middle of the vocal range. And I realize that I haven't been able to take the XG18 much lower than the 600hz I could have crossed the RS52 at.
Imaging of the RS52 seems superior to the XG18. Tweeter and RS52 seem to blend transparently. Less so with the XG18. And the sound is similar now to 2-way speakers. But here's the problem. The XG18 crossed at 200-400hz seems like a pain. My buddy Jake as 5 1/2" Revelators down to 40-ish hz ported in an MTM. And his bass is truly wonderful.
So the project basically started with the thought that the XG18 was somehow a really superior midrange. Zaph commented on how it was one of the nicest he had heard (at least a few years back).
Rabbitz: Yes, I've read posts talking about the XG18 as a "distortion generator". I suspect that's when its used full range.
Initially, the XG18 sound is almost too smooth. Perhaps I've gotten used to the mid-dome sound of the RS52. One thing is that the much larger driver does make drums sound much more realistic. I'll give the nod to the XG18 on that.
Its reassuring to hear someone say that the XG18 holds its own with the 18W8531G00. I was starting to have builders remorse.
sreten:
How does 200 to 800hz sound wrong to you? The XG18 appears to be a distortion generator on Zaph's graphs below 100hz. It starts sounding wimpy below 200hz to me. But then I've been listening to dual 8" drivers for a few years.
All: I want to save this project, but what's bugging me is that the sound isn't at least equalling my old project. I liked the sound of Scanspeak woofers. The Aircirc tweeter is my current favorite. And the XG18 seemed to be a good value compared to Revelator 5 1/2" drivers in terms of price. The XG18 is like 1/3rd the cost of a Revelator.
Shaun said:Daveis
Why don't you really complicate your life and stick the RS52 between the XG18 and the 6600?Say, 800Hz to (2.5kHz-3.5kHz)?
I think I'll remove one XG18 per speaker and make it a TMW when its all done.
Partially what makes the RS52 work so well is the 2" driver's vertical spacing with the tweeter is so close. Its kind of a big tweeter which excels in the 800 to 2200 range. Just the range where the 1" tweeters are starting to give out. And just the point where the 8" Scanspeak woofers I like are starting to beam.
Another mid that I've heard that's pretty good is the Morel mid dome.
I'll play around with it some more. Going to have a buddy come listen to tonight and get some feedback.
Some more listening tests done tonight.
As it turns out, I was too hasty with dismissing the XG18 or thinking that two per speaker was wrong.
The midrange is quite nice. The 8" woofer may only be used from 100-150hz or so down.
I will be asking my friend Jake to bring his Morel tweeter/5" Revelator MTM over for comparison.
I will post pics in a day or two. A single coat of pure tung oil thinned with citrus solvent on the Band-it walnut veneer and its starting to look like a speaker. I will say I like the iron on Band-it much better than the glue on stuff.
Luckily, I got 2 more pair of XG18's so I can finish off a rear pair. It would be nice to find another pair on ebay to do a center channel for home theater.
I don't regret going with plywood with shelf bracing and car deadening mat. I will however do 1-1/2 " thickness next time and possibly 1/8" walnut solid wood strips.
As it turns out, I was too hasty with dismissing the XG18 or thinking that two per speaker was wrong.
The midrange is quite nice. The 8" woofer may only be used from 100-150hz or so down.
I will be asking my friend Jake to bring his Morel tweeter/5" Revelator MTM over for comparison.
I will post pics in a day or two. A single coat of pure tung oil thinned with citrus solvent on the Band-it walnut veneer and its starting to look like a speaker. I will say I like the iron on Band-it much better than the glue on stuff.
Luckily, I got 2 more pair of XG18's so I can finish off a rear pair. It would be nice to find another pair on ebay to do a center channel for home theater.
I don't regret going with plywood with shelf bracing and car deadening mat. I will however do 1-1/2 " thickness next time and possibly 1/8" walnut solid wood strips.
http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker16.html
Hi,
Not much wrong with the above. Like the BAMTM any minor
limtatations in bass distortion performance is addressed
by going MTM with the bass/mid driver compared to MT.
The best part of the XT18/XG18 drivers is the midrange.
/sreten.
Hi,
Not much wrong with the above. Like the BAMTM any minor
limtatations in bass distortion performance is addressed
by going MTM with the bass/mid driver compared to MT.
The best part of the XT18/XG18 drivers is the midrange.
/sreten.
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