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Midbass Conical Horn - Keele vs Hornsresp which is the better FR?
Midbass Conical Horn - Keele vs Hornsresp which is the better FR?
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Old 17th August 2008, 04:10 AM   #1
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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Default Midbass Conical Horn - Keele vs Hornsresp which is the better FR?

Background
---------------

My goal is to build a midbass conical horn to cover 80-500hz (80-800hz would be better). Below 80hz I'll be using a tapped horn to 16hz and above I'll be using an Altec 288 CD in a MR-64 horn. The 288/MR-64 horn can go as low as 500hz, but looses it's dispersion control under 800hz. However if the MR-64 horn doesn't work out, I'm willing to consider other horns for the 288 driver in the future. The speaker will be crossed actively with a 24/db/decade slope using the linkwitz riley alignment. In the long term I plan to use a digital X-over. I'm also considering a dedicated HF horn above 7Khz. Anyway, on to the matter at hand.


Keele Calulations:
-----------------------

I've spent the day reading over Keele's 1977 AES paper and doing the calculations for the Altec/GPA 515G driver.

http://www.xlrtechs.com/dbkeele.com/...%20vs%20DR.pdf

Constants for Altec/GPA 515G 8ohm driver

Cms = 3.42 E-04 m/newton
Re = 6.2 ohms

Sd = 0.0848m^2
Le = 0.0058H

fs = 37hz
fc = 80hz

Qts = 0.269
Vas = 0.351m^3
Vfc = 0.002m^3


My calculations yield:

St = 640cm^2 (Throat area for optimal efficiency)
Vb = 49.9 liters (back chamber volume for proper reactance annulling)
Fhm = 275hz (indicates 6db/oct roll off point)
Fhvc = 340hz (indicates 12db/oct roll off point)
Fhc = 3494hz (indicates 18db/oct roll off point)


Conclusions & Questions
-------------------------------
I modeled Keeles values (rear chamber volume and throat area) in Hornsresp along with my own numbers (arrived at by trial and error). The two frequency responses are shown in the attached pic below, along with the HR parameters.

Seems to me that the black response curve gives the better result , no?

The Keele FR rolls off to early due to the very low compression ratio (read large throat area). However if I increase the compression ratio to 2.11:1, I gain a few 100 Hz on top. The lower 3db point suffers, but if I decrease the back chamber volume, I can boost the FR around 80hz to compensate. Seems like a win, win or am I missing something critical?

I'm also a little concerned about going bellow a 2:1 compression ratio. Is it still a horn with such a low compression ratio

Sorry if I'm asking dumb questions, I have zero practical experience with this.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 2pi fr keele hr.jpg (53.9 KB, 1167 views)
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Old 17th August 2008, 04:12 AM   #2
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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Keele's Data
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File Type: jpg hr ip keele.jpg (67.1 KB, 1095 views)
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Old 17th August 2008, 04:14 AM   #3
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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My HR data based on trial and error.
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File Type: jpg hr ip tweek.jpg (67.6 KB, 1073 views)
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Old 17th August 2008, 09:14 AM   #4
norman bates is offline norman bates  United States
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I'll take a stab.

[ 36 hz/.269 (qts) ] x 2 = mass corner.

so you'd get horn loading (and it's boost) till 275hz.
Then it will lose spl as freq goes up till it acts as a direct radiator.
I can't tell you what freq it will act as a direct radiator.

There is a P audio 12" with a qts under .2 around $150 that'd work well.

800hz is going to be a stretch without a phase plug.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...jk&r=&session=

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...jk&r=&session=

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...jk&r=&session=

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...12+horn+ev+djk

and bass horn loading is tricky, bass goes through walls.
if .5 is free space, then 1 pi (on that program) would be floor loaded.
So floor loaded better be on concrete, not wood.
and side wall better be concrete (not drywall) also or it cannot be used.

2:1 compression may help it go a bit higher than classic formulas.

Horns tend to unload below mouth / flare, so I wouldn't add too much boost (but I am no expert).

norman
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Old 17th August 2008, 01:49 PM   #5
RobWells is offline RobWells  United Kingdom
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The 515 driver is meant to work well in the Edgar midbass horn, covering the 80Hz to 500Hz that you are planning. Have a search over at audioasylum for details.

Also this guys done a conical horn covering the same range:

http://www.volvotreter.de/pics_plans.htm

Rob.
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Old 17th August 2008, 09:34 PM   #6
RobWells is offline RobWells  United Kingdom
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Just noticed that you've already posted on AA, so my post above was useless - sorry!

Rob.
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Old 18th August 2008, 11:13 PM   #7
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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Quote:
Originally posted by norman bates
I'll take a stab.

[ 36 hz/.269 (qts) ] x 2 = mass corner.

so you'd get horn loading (and it's boost) till 275hz.
Then it will lose spl as freq goes up till it acts as a direct radiator.
I can't tell you what freq it will act as a direct radiator.

There is a P audio 12" with a qts under .2 around $150 that'd work well.

800hz is going to be a stretch without a phase plug.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...jk&r=&session=

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?...jk&r=&session=

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...jk&r=&session=

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?...12+horn+ev+djk

and bass horn loading is tricky, bass goes through walls.
if .5 is free space, then 1 pi (on that program) would be floor loaded.
So floor loaded better be on concrete, not wood.
and side wall better be concrete (not drywall) also or it cannot be used.

2:1 compression may help it go a bit higher than classic formulas.

Horns tend to unload below mouth / flare, so I wouldn't add too much boost (but I am no expert).

norman
Thanks for the response norman! The FR graphs I posted are for 2pi (ground plane), so according to HR I should be good to 80hz. My floors a wooden so maybe this is a bit optimistic

Thanks also for the links. I had come across those horns during my researching, but I don't think they'll go low enough for my purposes (80hz).

Quote:
Originally posted by RobWells
The 515 driver is meant to work well in the Edgar midbass horn, covering the 80Hz to 500Hz that you are planning. Have a search over at audioasylum for details.

Also this guys done a conical horn covering the same range:

http://www.volvotreter.de/pics_plans.htm

Rob.
Thanks for the response Rob. The 80Hz Edgar horn and Erik's 77hz conical horn have provided much inspiration for this project.
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Old 19th August 2008, 04:01 AM   #8
GM is offline GM  United States
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Greets!

First things first, for those coming a little late to this 'party', here's our initial correspondence beginning here in another thread..........

Next, lacking any actual measured specs of your drivers, I'm basing my remarks on GPA 515-8G published specs (which are actually decades old Altec published specs), well proven Altec horn designs for the Altec 416, 515 series drivers and basic horn design theory.

There are basically two ways to cover a wide BW with a FLH, either combine the horn + appropriate driver's rising on axis response as Altec did or compression load it all the way and since it needs some form of phase plug to get both good HF extension and dispersion with the latter due to the much smaller throat required (not to mention the additional design problems the 515's vented DC presents WRT the high compression ratios required), the former is by far easiest to design/build along with being the most efficient, least distorted of the two.

So again I recommend using Altec's well proven ~129"^2 throat as a basis for your design as so many others have successfully done over the decades and it will allow you to use up to a ~1200 Hz XO if you so choose.

Of course you can choose an alignment between these two as you seem to think you should, but it won't be optimum, so for best performance you'll wind up using some form of EQ to smooth it out through the XO BW and you'll still have the added throat distortion, increasing with increasing CR, so Caveat Emptor.

While we're on the subject, the best performing conicals I did were of the two flare waveguide type like Tom Danley uses for his Unity (though I used a bit different design routine than he's posted), so while it will be somewhat larger, it's worth it IMO if you don't need the HF narrowing up on axis to blend to the HF horn a straight flare yields.

GM
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Old 19th August 2008, 07:28 PM   #9
steve71 is offline steve71  Australia
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Quote:
Originally posted by GM
Greets!
.... the former is by far easiest to design/build along with being the most efficient, least distorted of the two.

So again I recommend using Altec's well proven ~129"^2 throat as a basis for your design as so many others have successfully done over the decades and it will allow you to use up to a ~1200 Hz XO if you so choose.

Of course you can choose an alignment between these two as you seem to think you should, but it won't be optimum, so for best performance you'll wind up using some form of EQ to smooth it out through the XO BW and you'll still have the added throat distortion, increasing with increasing CR, so Caveat Emptor.

While we're on the subject, the best performing conicals I did were of the two flare waveguide type like Tom Danley uses for his Unity (though I used a bit different design routine than he's posted), so while it will be somewhat larger, it's worth it IMO if you don't need the HF narrowing up on axis to blend to the HF horn a straight flare yields.

GM
Thanks once again for the very informative post GM. I didn't realize the small throat would cause those problems. I guess I'm too focused on the FR and I'm ignoring other equally important issues. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing as they say

I tried running some HR simulations with a 832cm^2 throat, but the FR still keeps dropping about 300hz. Obviously I'm doing something wrong. The FR plots that are supplied with the Altec 515G Pdf show a very wide BW in a 816A enclosure (just as you suggest) with none of the downward sloping response after 300-400hz.
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Old 19th August 2008, 10:34 PM   #10
GM is offline GM  United States
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You're welcome!

The only thing you keep missing is that the horn's rolled off HF response sums with the driver's response to fill in the gap between the horn's roll off and the driver's break-up modes BW to create a nominally flat on-axis BW of a much higher efficiency lasting well into the HF, though of course the off axis rolls off such that a much lower XO point is required than it implies for a decent power response.

Since you have the capability, sim the 816's response except with a max flat sealed rear chamber as a reference to compare your design's HF roll off to.

GM
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