Three way horn system (4 way at the moment)
Hello all. After some time of lurking, this is my first post. Recently I have heard my friends horn system. As mid-bass he uses w-bin folded horns with one 12" Isophon driver, roughly 100x100x80 cm in size, then something like "smith" radial horn with a Coral 1" driver and Coral tweeters at the top, all with active crossovers. Except for PA, my first experience with horns.
What I noticed, the bass guitar, snare, kick, voices - all almost like alive during a rehearsal (I am musician too). I could even feel the bass, although it could not be very low. The music was playing loud, but it did not feel lound until i tried to speak. Awesome. I have a few questions.
What would be the bass-mid crossover frequency for such a system?
I hope I could use compression drivers and horns from around 1kHz, but I am afraid bass horns just won't fit into my room. What bass system would you recommend? I do not need very low frequencies, I would like to have this tight sounding bass. As far as drivers concerns, I am more or less limited to Monacor, Eminence, B&C, Selenium, Beyma or RCF.
Update after 11 years
(BTW, the horn system described above was identified meanwhile as the Danish Jealvox clone)
The current setup (October 17th, 2019) is (per side):
40 Hz bass horn with 15" speaker - Cerwin Vega inspired design - up to 120 Hz (one more per side is waiting to be installed)
JBL4560-like front horn with 15" Black Widow speaker - up to 600 Hz (to be replaced with John Inlow 135 Hz midbass horn in a few months)
JBL2445 + JBL2380A clone - up to 4.5 k, passive XO to HF (gorgeous Yuichi 290 horns are in production)
Beyma CP385Nd on 2380A with a custom 3D printed adapter (will be installed soon - the prototype needs some little adjustments)
The HF + MF will most probably be one day with a single 1.4" driver (maybe BMS4554) either on the Yuichi or another large horn.
Each side is using 3 channels of amplification (SE EL34 for the MF+HF) and one t.racks DSPmini for crossover, delays and EQ.
Hello all. After some time of lurking, this is my first post. Recently I have heard my friends horn system. As mid-bass he uses w-bin folded horns with one 12" Isophon driver, roughly 100x100x80 cm in size, then something like "smith" radial horn with a Coral 1" driver and Coral tweeters at the top, all with active crossovers. Except for PA, my first experience with horns.
What I noticed, the bass guitar, snare, kick, voices - all almost like alive during a rehearsal (I am musician too). I could even feel the bass, although it could not be very low. The music was playing loud, but it did not feel lound until i tried to speak. Awesome. I have a few questions.
What would be the bass-mid crossover frequency for such a system?
I hope I could use compression drivers and horns from around 1kHz, but I am afraid bass horns just won't fit into my room. What bass system would you recommend? I do not need very low frequencies, I would like to have this tight sounding bass. As far as drivers concerns, I am more or less limited to Monacor, Eminence, B&C, Selenium, Beyma or RCF.
Update after 11 years
(BTW, the horn system described above was identified meanwhile as the Danish Jealvox clone)The current setup (October 17th, 2019) is (per side):
40 Hz bass horn with 15" speaker - Cerwin Vega inspired design - up to 120 Hz (one more per side is waiting to be installed)
JBL4560-like front horn with 15" Black Widow speaker - up to 600 Hz (to be replaced with John Inlow 135 Hz midbass horn in a few months)
JBL2445 + JBL2380A clone - up to 4.5 k, passive XO to HF (gorgeous Yuichi 290 horns are in production)
Beyma CP385Nd on 2380A with a custom 3D printed adapter (will be installed soon - the prototype needs some little adjustments)
The HF + MF will most probably be one day with a single 1.4" driver (maybe BMS4554) either on the Yuichi or another large horn.
Each side is using 3 channels of amplification (SE EL34 for the MF+HF) and one t.racks DSPmini for crossover, delays and EQ.
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It's really worth the effort.
Look for plans of midrange and folded bass horns, there are quite a few published on the web. Crossover points may be placed around 1500Hz and 250hz (depending on horn and driver choice).
The hardest part is the crossover, it requires both delay correction and phase-shift/grounp-delay compensation for proper summing. Sound may become quite unpleasant if the crossover is not right, this is a common problem among horn systems and horns/drivers are erroneously blamed for that. You won't be able to get it right with anything less powerful than a DCX2496 (or enough discrete analog filters to make you crazy).
Look for plans of midrange and folded bass horns, there are quite a few published on the web. Crossover points may be placed around 1500Hz and 250hz (depending on horn and driver choice).
The hardest part is the crossover, it requires both delay correction and phase-shift/grounp-delay compensation for proper summing. Sound may become quite unpleasant if the crossover is not right, this is a common problem among horn systems and horns/drivers are erroneously blamed for that. You won't be able to get it right with anything less powerful than a DCX2496 (or enough discrete analog filters to make you crazy).
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125349
This is a short thread that I posted some time ago with an almost identical topic.
Enjoy
This is a short thread that I posted some time ago with an almost identical topic.
Enjoy
Not that difficult
Thanks for the reaction.
I think it would be not that difficult for me. I have a friend, who can measure loudspeakers and design crossovers (he makes his living from that). Unfortunately, I cannot use bass(or mid-bass) horns, so I only have to get a big enough horn from 1 kHz up. I am not sure if it was Smith horn, but it was some kind of radial horn with fins inside. I liked both the way they look and sound. I already have a pair of coaxial speakers with compression drivers in a MLTL - but I moved to another place and these are just too big, heavy and ugly.
More or less, I am searching for that dry high efficient bass kick down to say 50-60 Hz but without horns. Corner loaded horns are not an option for me, as one of the corners is too close to an opening to the other room.
At one time, I was thnkink about the rear loaded horns - could they do the kick provided they are designed properly (not too short, not too small with too low cutoff). Or I have a sort of clone of EVM12L by BC - maybe that one could do it in a relatively small front loaded horn with a sub below - but that is another box to have and I am a little space limited.
Thanks for the reaction.
I think it would be not that difficult for me. I have a friend, who can measure loudspeakers and design crossovers (he makes his living from that). Unfortunately, I cannot use bass(or mid-bass) horns, so I only have to get a big enough horn from 1 kHz up. I am not sure if it was Smith horn, but it was some kind of radial horn with fins inside. I liked both the way they look and sound. I already have a pair of coaxial speakers with compression drivers in a MLTL - but I moved to another place and these are just too big, heavy and ugly.
More or less, I am searching for that dry high efficient bass kick down to say 50-60 Hz but without horns. Corner loaded horns are not an option for me, as one of the corners is too close to an opening to the other room.
At one time, I was thnkink about the rear loaded horns - could they do the kick provided they are designed properly (not too short, not too small with too low cutoff). Or I have a sort of clone of EVM12L by BC - maybe that one could do it in a relatively small front loaded horn with a sub below - but that is another box to have and I am a little space limited.
The kind of bass and midbass that you experienced has a lot to do with directivity at low frequencies and also with high hefficiency. You will never feel that with direct radiators, at least not indoors, except with massive dipoles.
When direct radiators are used indoors, reflected sound always ruins transients and dynamics.
When direct radiators are used indoors, reflected sound always ruins transients and dynamics.
For the crossover and compensation, I will be most probably using PureData software on a Linux machine with a 6 output pro sound card.
I am afraid I am forced to some kind of compromise. I somehow like compression driver sound and I would not like to loose the "kick". That leads to either a 100 Hz midbass horn with some kind of sub or I could try equalized dipoles. As I say, I prefer quality to low extension.
I was aready considering masking the bass horns as a TV table, then maybe they coul be large enough. How about the conical Pi horns? Ever tried one? Should be easy to build.
CLS: Your speakers are really nice, but they would not fit into my living room Only one box of the two larger horns would be allowed with the HF unit. Then I guess I am in trouble
I am afraid I am forced to some kind of compromise. I somehow like compression driver sound and I would not like to loose the "kick". That leads to either a 100 Hz midbass horn with some kind of sub or I could try equalized dipoles. As I say, I prefer quality to low extension.
I was aready considering masking the bass horns as a TV table, then maybe they coul be large enough. How about the conical Pi horns? Ever tried one? Should be easy to build.
CLS: Your speakers are really nice, but they would not fit into my living room
Only one box of the two larger horns would be allowed with the HF unit. Then I guess I am in troubleYou could design the basshorns to be used up to around 150hz which would make the midbass horns smaller.
This is said to have lots of slam: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_horn.asp?MODEL=TH 115
If you are thinking of the PI, consider using the original design, the Lab Sub, instead of the copycat. Then again, with tapped horns (like in the link above) you could have a similar performance in a smaller package.
This is said to have lots of slam: http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/tapped_horn.asp?MODEL=TH 115
If you are thinking of the PI, consider using the original design, the Lab Sub, instead of the copycat. Then again, with tapped horns (like in the link above) you could have a similar performance in a smaller package.
Sorry RJ,
The Danley bin is a tapped horn, with the driver in the mouth, when I tell people to imagine one I describe a rear loaded horn (scoop) with the front baffle bent and lowered so it is in the mouth, and the driver inverted.
BFM's designs are no good for home use IMO, and they aren't exactly the stuff for big pro use anyway, they have a market though.
The Danley bin is a tapped horn, with the driver in the mouth, when I tell people to imagine one I describe a rear loaded horn (scoop) with the front baffle bent and lowered so it is in the mouth, and the driver inverted.
BFM's designs are no good for home use IMO, and they aren't exactly the stuff for big pro use anyway, they have a market though.
aubergine said:
You could have been nice and posted some links;
http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/14917/0/
Nice write up on that Danley horn.
http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/pdf/danley_tapped.pdf
BUT in that forum they discusssed how frequency response was the main factor in comparing bass horns along with size and weight.
Bill's plans follow the same response shape as Danleys so they both would fill a living room with adequate bass. I don't know if I'd want a Bassmaxx in my living room.
http://catalogs.infocommiq.com/AVCA...d=2982&SID=0&pin_id=1786&ProdID=342448&T3=137
Oops. Sorry, I posted a bit quickly.
The forum is at www.speakerplans.com/forum
The horn by Phil Pope is the 'Apache H15', I have attached the plan.
Users djk and snowflake have been churning out quality tapped horn designs since.
I maintain that bill's design will not perform as well in a single as the TH-115.
There is great controversy surrounding his plots on PSW if you dig deeper.
The forum is at www.speakerplans.com/forum
The horn by Phil Pope is the 'Apache H15', I have attached the plan.
Users djk and snowflake have been churning out quality tapped horn designs since.
I maintain that bill's design will not perform as well in a single as the TH-115.
There is great controversy surrounding his plots on PSW if you dig deeper.
Attachments
aubergine said:
I didn't find the article or post about Bill's design vs. Pope's, but I did find this;
http://www.prosoundshootout.com/
Their measured response was the same as Bill's for the Titan 48;
http://www.billfitzmaurice.com/T48.html
A peak at around 70 hz shows up in both measurements.
Too bad Danley wasn't in the shootout or did I miss it.
Still digging....
Some use the Schmackshorns placed close to the wall, so if time alignment is no problem for you you get a full-grown horn with better upper bass than a corner horn and not as room-eating as a w-bin horn.
http://www.lup-berlin.de/archiv/Bausatz/index.html
http://www.lup-berlin.de/archiv/Bausatz/index.html
Thanks for the suggestions. I am considering now something like Altec A7 - with a 12" front loaded and bass reflex loaded - maybe with a bit of EQ. Or something like Klipsch LaScala, which is actually very close to the system I saw.
The Schmackhorn is backloaded - so does that mean, that I can get the slam even with backloaded horns? Then, Viech is my favorite, as it should be easy to build and I can easily get the drivers. 96dB/(m.W) is enough efficient for my current amp/room.
The Schmackhorn is backloaded - so does that mean, that I can get the slam even with backloaded horns? Then, Viech is my favorite, as it should be easy to build and I can easily get the drivers. 96dB/(m.W) is enough efficient for my current amp/room.
I don´t remember a comparison with the LaScala, but in comparison with the Klipschorn the Schmacks is always said to have more slam. BTW, the original use of the Schmacks is not really backloaded, since it is crossed at 250Hz, where the direct radiation of the driver is irrelevant. Driving it up to 1000 Hz is possible, some people have been successful with medium-Fs 8" pro drivers. This driver can be used for the Viech, and I think the chances for the Schmacks are good, as well:
http://www.spectrumaudio.de/breit/sica/sicaLP208.38.1100.html
http://www.spectrumaudio.de/breit/sica/sicaLP208.38.1100.html
The Geddes WG's will do that, as will some of the Azura horns.pelanj said:
I've used radial and axisymmetric horns and much prefer the latter.pelanj said:
As well as the Geddes work and the threads here, these also make interesting reading.
http://audioheritage.org/html/perspectives/drews-clues/drews-clues.htm
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=12126
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=12751
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=12967
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=12390
http://audioheritage.org/vbulletin/s...ad.php?t=17218
To get the same sort of performance in a DR as a horn, it's still going to be big.pelanj said:
Then you are going to need the ability to move a fair amount of air with good efficiency and low distortion. A couple of 15's or an 18 in a sealed box will do this, but it'll be a reasonable size. Model some in Unibox. Some 15's like the B&C 15PS100 will nearly do what you want in a small box. So will the BMS 18N830/850.pelanj said:
Mouth size and length determine the LF cutoff. 60Hz is not small.pelanj said:
I don't like BLH's and have not heard one as good as a good FLH. You don't get any efficiency increase or directivity control.
My experience does not tally with either paragraph of yours. I have never heard a dipole even come close to a FLH for dynamics or any sense of 'impact' (physical sloidity to the sound).Eva said:
el`Ol said:
According to my simulations this driver would also do well in a loaded short (quarter Fs-wavelength) pipe like this:
http://www.zuaudio.com/site/INT_druid_2.html
It´s a lot more versatile than the low Fs Lother, Fostex, Nirvana, etc. fullrangers.
You could build the three for us and tell us what slams most
Axisymmetrical horns
I have found a guy, who will be probably to make these round wooden horns for me. I am finally close to the idea of the full system. In one of the links Brett provided, there is some talk about using midrange cones up to 1-2 kHz, they should be superior in distortion figures, but lower in sensitivity (made up with a more powerful amp).
My first idea is, a high efficient PA mid 10" with a 10" horn, or 12", or 15".
Which size should I select if I am targetting say 1,2 - 1,5 kHz crossover frequency? I will be most probably using 1" drivers, but I may end up with 2". Is there a way to make the horn in two parts, so that it would fit both 1" and 2" drivers?
I am heading towards this sperical oblate waveguide - is there any formula/excel sheet, so that I can calculate the profile myself in higher detail?
As far as the bass section concerns, I am not decided whether horns or sealed equalized box.
I have found a guy, who will be probably to make these round wooden horns for me. I am finally close to the idea of the full system. In one of the links Brett provided, there is some talk about using midrange cones up to 1-2 kHz, they should be superior in distortion figures, but lower in sensitivity (made up with a more powerful amp).
My first idea is, a high efficient PA mid 10" with a 10" horn, or 12", or 15".
Which size should I select if I am targetting say 1,2 - 1,5 kHz crossover frequency? I will be most probably using 1" drivers, but I may end up with 2". Is there a way to make the horn in two parts, so that it would fit both 1" and 2" drivers?
I am heading towards this sperical oblate waveguide - is there any formula/excel sheet, so that I can calculate the profile myself in higher detail?
As far as the bass section concerns, I am not decided whether horns or sealed equalized box.