...and now I'm depressed.
I feel like someone who was blind and thought I was not missing much....then someone let me see some blurry black and white blobs and shapes which made me think "wow this is pretty good!" then suddenly I was given better than 20/20 vision for a view minutes and told that I could only have that with some super high price which I cannot afford and now I gotta go back to blackness or blobs.
So I thought I was happy with my Celestion speakers and was just looking for a small improvement for me to have the 'ideal' sound I was after. Went and heard some Monitor Audio silver series which I preferred over some mid range B&W and Paradigms studios I heard. Then the bad thing happened....
heard a set of speakers at the same store called "PMC EB1"
No words I have will convey what I heard. The unreal clarity, the fact that these 150lb speakers just instantly vanished and sound just magically filled the room. The incredibly tight controlled bass down to below audible range (there was one note that I could not even here but I new was there because the filiments in the light bulbs were shuddering). Oh the sound was also incredibly real and live. Even at extreme volumes, I never felt the speaker sounding compressed or strained. It was unreal. Uuugh I can go on for ever. My friend was with me and we blabbed about these things for 2 hours after. I'm still in shock.
I definitly could not deal with the $10K pride tag but nothing and I mean nothing prepared me for that. I listened to a pair of B&W 802 series which they had there but it was like listening to fisher price toys!
Now must research and find out how they can do what they did. Did have big $$ equipment backing it up but not sure how much that actually adds. I always thought the speakers were the most critical component (anyway it had a Krell CD player with a Krell outboard DAC and a Krell power amplifier). Room was pretty big as well 13'x 18' which did seem to have some smartly placed damping materials such as drapes, rugs on the wall and some live plants in the corners hiding some bass traps.
Anyway I cant go buy the monitor audios after hearing this. There is no point. I'll stop raving like a madman now. I feel like my hobby has been smashed because I"ve been exposed to something unattainable. Like taking someone who was going to shop for a mustang GT and giving them a ride in a Ferrari Enzo and then dropping them off saying "good luck car shopping" LOL
I feel like someone who was blind and thought I was not missing much....then someone let me see some blurry black and white blobs and shapes which made me think "wow this is pretty good!" then suddenly I was given better than 20/20 vision for a view minutes and told that I could only have that with some super high price which I cannot afford and now I gotta go back to blackness or blobs.
So I thought I was happy with my Celestion speakers and was just looking for a small improvement for me to have the 'ideal' sound I was after. Went and heard some Monitor Audio silver series which I preferred over some mid range B&W and Paradigms studios I heard. Then the bad thing happened....
heard a set of speakers at the same store called "PMC EB1"
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
No words I have will convey what I heard. The unreal clarity, the fact that these 150lb speakers just instantly vanished and sound just magically filled the room. The incredibly tight controlled bass down to below audible range (there was one note that I could not even here but I new was there because the filiments in the light bulbs were shuddering). Oh the sound was also incredibly real and live. Even at extreme volumes, I never felt the speaker sounding compressed or strained. It was unreal. Uuugh I can go on for ever. My friend was with me and we blabbed about these things for 2 hours after. I'm still in shock.
I definitly could not deal with the $10K pride tag but nothing and I mean nothing prepared me for that. I listened to a pair of B&W 802 series which they had there but it was like listening to fisher price toys!
Now must research and find out how they can do what they did. Did have big $$ equipment backing it up but not sure how much that actually adds. I always thought the speakers were the most critical component (anyway it had a Krell CD player with a Krell outboard DAC and a Krell power amplifier). Room was pretty big as well 13'x 18' which did seem to have some smartly placed damping materials such as drapes, rugs on the wall and some live plants in the corners hiding some bass traps.
Anyway I cant go buy the monitor audios after hearing this. There is no point. I'll stop raving like a madman now. I feel like my hobby has been smashed because I"ve been exposed to something unattainable. Like taking someone who was going to shop for a mustang GT and giving them a ride in a Ferrari Enzo and then dropping them off saying "good luck car shopping" LOL
Link would not work for me.
http://www.heavymoon.co.jp/hifi/pmc/eb1/index.html
Cheers ....... Graham.
http://www.heavymoon.co.jp/hifi/pmc/eb1/index.html
Cheers ....... Graham.
No really guys, it was just stunning. Maybe the room setup is just done really well, but I've never ever EVER heard anything like that.
LONG ago I heard a set of Matrix 801 speakers on some Mark Levinson equipment and I thought that was astonishing but this just seemed like a few levels up. Dont know how good the 801's are supposed to really be but I always heard they were good and from what I heard, they were but they did not seem to just vanish in the room like these.
LONG ago I heard a set of Matrix 801 speakers on some Mark Levinson equipment and I thought that was astonishing but this just seemed like a few levels up. Dont know how good the 801's are supposed to really be but I always heard they were good and from what I heard, they were but they did not seem to just vanish in the room like these.
Tino said:
I have several tracks that can easily manage that on just about any pair of loudspeakers. In other words, it's usually highly dependent on the source material. What was being played? Any idea?? Probably not, because the salesman likely gave you his rehearsed tactics, and that most certainly includes the music in the CD player.
As for the "Mark Levinson equipment", I've witnessed "cheap" pro amplifiers beat them for a tiny fraction of the cost. A joke really.
Rather than wasting your time feeding yourself with the Stereophile BS, perhaps you should read here more often.
Music was some stuff I brought over. Nothing fancy. Enya, Jack Johnson, Tiesto, Crystal Method, Vanessa Carlton and one Classical CD which was a Telarc disc which I had from a long time ago as a test CD. I'd have to look it up but its nice. I like it.
The salesman basically popped the discs in. I had control of the volume and tracks.
I have an old SAE amplifier as well as a Soundcraftsmen amp. I've also played around with a QSC MX series amp and somehow I doubt they'd be better. I have a Threshold SA3 as my main amplifier which to me sounds a little better so next thing you'll tell me is to throw that away as well I mean its just going to be stereophile junk right.
PS the QSC MX I tried was terrible. Most gritty, dirty sounding thing ever. My SAE is first in line of my Threshold dies. The soundcraftsmen is good too but not as nice as the SAE. Just my opinion. Also I dont care what anyone says about me feeding into the whole audiophile or stereophile stuff but I'd never ditch my Threshold. To me its just wonderful and I'm sure the Levinson is a well designed unit. Maybe overpriced but I'm sure its still really good.
The salesman basically popped the discs in. I had control of the volume and tracks.
I have an old SAE amplifier as well as a Soundcraftsmen amp. I've also played around with a QSC MX series amp and somehow I doubt they'd be better. I have a Threshold SA3 as my main amplifier which to me sounds a little better so next thing you'll tell me is to throw that away as well
I mean its just going to be stereophile junk right. PS the QSC MX I tried was terrible. Most gritty, dirty sounding thing ever. My SAE is first in line of my Threshold dies. The soundcraftsmen is good too but not as nice as the SAE. Just my opinion. Also I dont care what anyone says about me feeding into the whole audiophile or stereophile stuff but I'd never ditch my Threshold. To me its just wonderful and I'm sure the Levinson is a well designed unit. Maybe overpriced but I'm sure its still really good.
BHTX said:
I have several tracks that can easily manage that on just about any pair of loudspeakers. In other words, it's usually highly dependent on the source material. What was being played? Any idea?? Probably not, because the salesman likely gave you his rehearsed tactics, and that most certainly includes the music in the CD player.
As for the "Mark Levinson equipment", I've witnessed "cheap" pro amplifiers beat them for a tiny fraction of the cost. A joke really.
Rather than wasting your time feeding yourself with the Stereophile BS, perhaps you should read here more often.
I have some spare parts. I wonder if I can make something with them that would sound really good. They were not so expesive compoments for me to tinker with. I made one bookshelf that sounds ok but I'm no wizard with the crossover designs so I dont know what I could come up with.
Got the following stuff:
2x Vifa D27TG-45
http://www.soundocity.com/Oregondv/VIVA_S45.jpg
2x Vifa M13 shielded 5" woofers
http://www.digitalmegahouse.com.au/images/M13SG-09-08.JPG
2x Vifa P17WJ 6.5" woofers
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff35/filtor1/VifaP17WJ-0065Woofer.jpg
2x Vifa M26WR woofers 10"
http://www.digitalmegahouse.com.au/images/M26WR-09-08.JPG
I made a sub box with the 10" a long time ago and I was quite impressed with them. I made a bookshelf with the 5" and tweeters. It sounded ok but not as good as my Celestions because sometimes it sounded a bit peaky on certain frequencies. I used a very simple 6db crossover on the woofer and tweeter though.
Got the following stuff:
2x Vifa D27TG-45
http://www.soundocity.com/Oregondv/VIVA_S45.jpg
2x Vifa M13 shielded 5" woofers
http://www.digitalmegahouse.com.au/images/M13SG-09-08.JPG
2x Vifa P17WJ 6.5" woofers
http://i243.photobucket.com/albums/ff35/filtor1/VifaP17WJ-0065Woofer.jpg
2x Vifa M26WR woofers 10"
http://www.digitalmegahouse.com.au/images/M26WR-09-08.JPG
I made a sub box with the 10" a long time ago and I was quite impressed with them. I made a bookshelf with the 5" and tweeters. It sounded ok but not as good as my Celestions because sometimes it sounded a bit peaky on certain frequencies. I used a very simple 6db crossover on the woofer and tweeter though.
PMC speakers are not chopped liver. Nonetheless you might go back and have another listen see if you still are as impressed
Try an experiment: Build a cheap TL speaker and line the TL on ONE side with open cell foam like that used for higher quality mattresses or mattress toppers. Make sure the foam is glued down tightly. Take a look at the pictures at the bottom of the page here:
http://www.pmc-speakers.com/company/technology.php
See what you think.
The theory behind this type of design is not clear but I believe its related to this US patent 6,704,425
The effect of the the foam.
I think it behaves like a sponge in shallow water. As waves vary the pressure so the fluid fills the cells to a greater and lesser extent as it stretches the cell walls.
In the case of the transmission line the fluid is air: the compression and decompression of the air in the cells, or more precisely, the stretching and relaxation of the cell walls modifies the pressure regime in the transmission line due to the frictionally caused delays as the air escapes through the narrow openings in the cell walls.
Get the thickness and density of foam right and the speaker is damped optimally, the HF rubbish in the TL is damped, and the driver still thinks it's looking at a very large enclosure volume.
The foam lining the PMC speakers, from the pictures, looks like it might be some sort of memory foam, but I don't know that.
On the other hand, you might go visit Earl Geddes, who is within driving distance of you, and listen to his speakers and see if you get a similar impression. I say this because there's less mystery involved with what he does and the cost of his speakers is less. He's getting good reviews with similar language to yours:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1555455#post1555455
Try an experiment: Build a cheap TL speaker and line the TL on ONE side with open cell foam like that used for higher quality mattresses or mattress toppers. Make sure the foam is glued down tightly. Take a look at the pictures at the bottom of the page here:
http://www.pmc-speakers.com/company/technology.php
See what you think.
The theory behind this type of design is not clear but I believe its related to this US patent 6,704,425
The effect of the the foam.
I think it behaves like a sponge in shallow water. As waves vary the pressure so the fluid fills the cells to a greater and lesser extent as it stretches the cell walls.
In the case of the transmission line the fluid is air: the compression and decompression of the air in the cells, or more precisely, the stretching and relaxation of the cell walls modifies the pressure regime in the transmission line due to the frictionally caused delays as the air escapes through the narrow openings in the cell walls.
Get the thickness and density of foam right and the speaker is damped optimally, the HF rubbish in the TL is damped, and the driver still thinks it's looking at a very large enclosure volume.
The foam lining the PMC speakers, from the pictures, looks like it might be some sort of memory foam, but I don't know that.
On the other hand, you might go visit Earl Geddes, who is within driving distance of you, and listen to his speakers and see if you get a similar impression. I say this because there's less mystery involved with what he does and the cost of his speakers is less. He's getting good reviews with similar language to yours:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1555455#post1555455
..x2.FrankWW said:
BTW, there's an entire section of this forum dedicated to Pass Labs, so of course I can't badmouth Threshold.
..Not that I ever would, anyway. Seriously, I wouldn't.
Anyway, if you really are within driving distance of Dr. Geddes, I would also HIGHLY suggest going and having a listen. I know there's a lot of people around this forum that would love to meet him and audition his speakers, including me. Take advantage of the opportunity. I certainly would if I could.
Go into your SAE and replace ALL the caps and go have another listen to your speakers and they are going to sound like something new and unreal.
The 10K price tag doesn't mean they are good speakers. The room they were in was setup to maximize the effect. You also have to take into consideration the electronics being used. Do you actually believe if you purchased them and hooked them up at home they would sound as good?
The 10K price tag doesn't mean they are good speakers. The room they were in was setup to maximize the effect. You also have to take into consideration the electronics being used. Do you actually believe if you purchased them and hooked them up at home they would sound as good?
It would be a first for me, as I've never heard anything with a dome midrange that I could stand long term. IMO, sales and marketing and maybe good setup did it's job on you. You can certainly build something comparable, though you might be limited by your listening room. My living room is open to the kitchen, a hallway and is irregularly shaped. It has a nasty bass suckout in the listening position, so the best speakers in the world will never do their best for me. Don't underestimate the importance of the room and it's treatment- you could spend $10k on speakers and still be unhappy.
I heard a set of pmc's a few years ago and I thought they sounded great. Smooth, detailed, clarity and warmth too...
I believe a similar speaker could be built around an atc mid, a decent 10" driver in a TL and a decent dome tweet (scanspeak 9500 ?)
Thats what I'd be trying anyhow. I'd also run active xo's rather than passives.
Cheers,
Rob.
I believe a similar speaker could be built around an atc mid, a decent 10" driver in a TL and a decent dome tweet (scanspeak 9500 ?)
Thats what I'd be trying anyhow. I'd also run active xo's rather than passives.
Cheers,
Rob.
Tino,
While I'm sure that the those PMC speakers are really good sounding. What I believe it is that has knocked you out is just a good TL with some high quality and well selected components matched up. It is the total synergy of that setup that is so good.
This is one of the reasons there is a following for TL's. Yet in spite of this you may be ascribing too much of the quality to just the speakers. Also, in spite of what some folks have said most pro amps while quite dynamic and powerful are not as good sounding as the better audiophile amps.
I'm sure that for most of the posters on this forum they are trying to get enjoying and satisfying sound at a reasonable price. Which can be done if you listen to what is good and make reasonable trade offs.
There is a tendency in the high end to discount anything that is not expensive and in the DIY area to discount anything that is. But basically the physics don't care what price is attached to a product. Good designs are good no matter the cost.
While I'm sure that the those PMC speakers are really good sounding. What I believe it is that has knocked you out is just a good TL with some high quality and well selected components matched up. It is the total synergy of that setup that is so good.
This is one of the reasons there is a following for TL's. Yet in spite of this you may be ascribing too much of the quality to just the speakers. Also, in spite of what some folks have said most pro amps while quite dynamic and powerful are not as good sounding as the better audiophile amps.
I'm sure that for most of the posters on this forum they are trying to get enjoying and satisfying sound at a reasonable price. Which can be done if you listen to what is good and make reasonable trade offs.
There is a tendency in the high end to discount anything that is not expensive and in the DIY area to discount anything that is. But basically the physics don't care what price is attached to a product. Good designs are good no matter the cost.
Tino, You'll notice that in all the PMC speakers on that page I posted in my previous message how only one side of the TL had foam attached.
That's the "trick". They're using the foam as a multipurpose "acoustic filter" and I expect they had to try a number of different types, densities and thicknesses of foam before they found the one that worked optimally.
(The foam must be glued down thoroughly, otherwise the low frequencies will just worm their way around it and under it and the effect won't work well).
Once they found the optimal foam, and got themselves a good low end - which I suspect is what blew you away - then they had to start the hard work of optimizing the speaker design.
The patent I posted is written somewhat obscurely but I believe there is info in it about the density of the foam that worked for that application. It might be a clue.
I got some speakers and wood together some while ago and cut the wood with a view to doing some experiments with a similar setup but circumstances caught up with me and I never found the time.
However, before you get too involved in researching and building, I suggest again you try to hear Geddes's speakers because if they turn your crank the same way, then they're more accessible in terms of cost, time, and theoretical knowledge.
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