Hi Don,
after you mentioned the tapped horn thread, I took a look at the progress the colaboration had made. Incredible so far, I had missed how long this thread had grown since last time I checked.
I also think that a tapped horn (folded, hidden) is a good approach to a home theater sub, especially if it's going to be frugal.
That's not a problem to Jean-Michel, I think, as he wouldn't have ordered the original HE10.1 anyway. Also, the project is well documented for everyone willing to still build it. Thanks for the construction guide.
You're absolutely right, we didn't talk about Jean-Michel's screen solution up to now.
In the planned room, it's not clear to me wether the two front speakers would still be close enough to each other in order to achieve a phantom source in the middle for everyone in the auditorium...
What signal processing do you incorporate in order to circumvent the center? Something special?
Cheers,
Sebastian.
after you mentioned the tapped horn thread, I took a look at the progress the colaboration had made. Incredible so far, I had missed how long this thread had grown since last time I checked.
I also think that a tapped horn (folded, hidden) is a good approach to a home theater sub, especially if it's going to be frugal.
That's not a problem to Jean-Michel, I think, as he wouldn't have ordered the original HE10.1 anyway. Also, the project is well documented for everyone willing to still build it. Thanks for the construction guide.
You're absolutely right, we didn't talk about Jean-Michel's screen solution up to now.
In the planned room, it's not clear to me wether the two front speakers would still be close enough to each other in order to achieve a phantom source in the middle for everyone in the auditorium...
What signal processing do you incorporate in order to circumvent the center? Something special?
Cheers,
Sebastian.
Don Bunce said:
Having built a lot of theaters and trying all the options I agree with this 100%. The three mains MUST be identical or use a phantom center. I have three identical speakers in front, all behind my "Magical Acoustically Transparent Wonder Screen" (a bed sheet) and there IS an advantage to a center channel, BUT ONLY if it is identical to the sides, at the same height as the sides and dead on center screen. Otherwise delete it and save the money. Buy better main speakers.
The surrounds should not use horns - they should be wide directivity.
PS. you might consider my kits as they meet your targets - except price, but then your target cost is pretty low for anything but custom built units where you absorb the cost of building them.
Ok, back in the place!
As I said I tried to answer yesterday, but it crashed on me after a long (wasted) time and after I had to go...
Ok, first of all I have attached a drawing of the room. Sorry for the annotations in french, but I did not take the time to translate them. I think the dimensions are pretty obvious, as well as listening/viewing position. "F" stands for front speakers and "C" for center. All 3 will be behind the screen. "Alt. F" is the alternative position of front speakers (right below screen this time) if we want to give them more width, but I'd rather live them behind the screen.
The yellow-ish layer against front walls is accoustic treatment (fabric over rockwool). The cieling will be rockwool as well, certainly a laminate floor. It is pretty obvious the size is not ideal, but "pushing the walls" was not an option. The dispersion for the rear speakers is going to be challenging and it certainly won't be ideal for the extreme seats (the ones on each side). The "sweet spot" will be ssuite narros as well, but again, "pushing the walls" was not an option.
To answer more directly your questions now...
The L8S800 is indeed looking like a good 8' (one that goes low, and with a quite flat response curve). It is more the concept of the 8' that we kind of dropped (though as you say this one goes low).
Basically, it looked dificult to have a 8' going as wlow as 60/80Hz, then when switchning to a 10', it was dificult to mate it with a small compression like a DE10 and that how we ended up with 10'+DE250 (for the front speakkers at least) in the configuration called "Optimum".
More specifically on this one :
- having 5 would be stretching the budget and it does not have a "little brother" within the RCF line up that would offer same sound "colour" but cheaper;
- we failed finding lot of feedback (it is to note that the few we found were positive) or implementation examples;
- quite a few people in the forum I belong and/or browse (the exact ones kepa1 pointed to, I am part of homecinem-fr.com) use Beymas, none used this RCF. We felt that we would get help from the community.
On the SPL... I am nota big fan of loud listening, but I do like to get all details of a soundtrack (or music) without struggling. What does it means in dBs, I habve no idea (and do not have a SPL meter to measure what I would rate as "normal" listening level. It is to note though that the room is going to be quite absorbant which generally lead to higher listening volumes.
As you can see from the drawing, if I keep the front speakers behind the screen, they are going to be pretty close and I am not sure there will be enough space between tehm for good stereo, that's why I am keeping the option of the alternate position (but then, all 3 are not leveled, unless I put all three belos the screen)...
The rear speakers are the real headacke... I am just afraid that there will not be a good solution, not with home-brew DIY at least as I think the only way to create enough diffraction for the job would be to go dipole (or bipole ?) and I would think that it is in the "too hard box" at this stage (for me at least). I remender reading something about a guy that designed various dipole configuration, and there was a few attempts before he had the ideal set up... How stupid was I not to save this link!!! I definitely started from here, but I think it was on a DIYer website...
So I probably have to accept that the situation won't be ideal here.
We did not switch to 10' for SPL, but for the ability to go down to 60/80Hz.
Is it the 10G40 you do not like full stop (because the SM110/n look like another good candidate), the Beymas, or just the value for money is not right. Please, speak your mind.
As I said I tried to answer yesterday, but it crashed on me after a long (wasted) time and after I had to go...
Ok, first of all I have attached a drawing of the room. Sorry for the annotations in french, but I did not take the time to translate them. I think the dimensions are pretty obvious, as well as listening/viewing position. "F" stands for front speakers and "C" for center. All 3 will be behind the screen. "Alt. F" is the alternative position of front speakers (right below screen this time) if we want to give them more width, but I'd rather live them behind the screen.
The yellow-ish layer against front walls is accoustic treatment (fabric over rockwool). The cieling will be rockwool as well, certainly a laminate floor. It is pretty obvious the size is not ideal, but "pushing the walls" was not an option. The dispersion for the rear speakers is going to be challenging and it certainly won't be ideal for the extreme seats (the ones on each side). The "sweet spot" will be ssuite narros as well, but again, "pushing the walls" was not an option.
To answer more directly your questions now...
The L8S800 is indeed looking like a good 8' (one that goes low, and with a quite flat response curve). It is more the concept of the 8' that we kind of dropped (though as you say this one goes low).
Basically, it looked dificult to have a 8' going as wlow as 60/80Hz, then when switchning to a 10', it was dificult to mate it with a small compression like a DE10 and that how we ended up with 10'+DE250 (for the front speakkers at least) in the configuration called "Optimum".
More specifically on this one :
- having 5 would be stretching the budget and it does not have a "little brother" within the RCF line up that would offer same sound "colour" but cheaper;
- we failed finding lot of feedback (it is to note that the few we found were positive) or implementation examples;
- quite a few people in the forum I belong and/or browse (the exact ones kepa1 pointed to, I am part of homecinem-fr.com) use Beymas, none used this RCF. We felt that we would get help from the community.
Yep, instalation will be non moveable.
This is difficult one...
On the SPL... I am nota big fan of loud listening, but I do like to get all details of a soundtrack (or music) without struggling. What does it means in dBs, I habve no idea (and do not have a SPL meter to measure what I would rate as "normal" listening level. It is to note though that the room is going to be quite absorbant which generally lead to higher listening volumes.
As you can see from the drawing, if I keep the front speakers behind the screen, they are going to be pretty close and I am not sure there will be enough space between tehm for good stereo, that's why I am keeping the option of the alternate position (but then, all 3 are not leveled, unless I put all three belos the screen)...
The rear speakers are the real headacke... I am just afraid that there will not be a good solution, not with home-brew DIY at least as I think the only way to create enough diffraction for the job would be to go dipole (or bipole ?) and I would think that it is in the "too hard box" at this stage (for me at least). I remender reading something about a guy that designed various dipole configuration, and there was a few attempts before he had the ideal set up... How stupid was I not to save this link!!! I definitely started from here, but I think it was on a DIYer website...
So I probably have to accept that the situation won't be ideal here.
We are indeed keen on an "unbalanced" set up although some multi-channel gurus would call us heretics. Ithink that it may be required to have 5 fully identical speakers for multi-channel music, I do not feel it as important for a HT set up.
The plan would not be to have 5 of them (or 5 10'), the idea would be to have cheaper and smaller drives for the rears speakers (Beyma SM108 are good suspects)...
i am not sure I fully agree on the "no more bass than the L8S800", I definitely agree on the "no need more SPL".
We did not switch to 10' for SPL, but for the ability to go down to 60/80Hz.
Sebastian, actually I missed this bit yesterday, but I am keen for you to expand on this.
Is it the 10G40 you do not like full stop (because the SM110/n look like another good candidate), the Beymas, or just the value for money is not right. Please, speak your mind
.Attachments
Don, how would you rate both the sound quality and coverage angle of these units (and eventually sound quality for wide coverage angle
).I have bookmarked the thread on taped horm and promise to read it all. I hope to find there a "folded" example of a realisation that would suit my size requirements, but I think I shall do the 5.0 speakers first as I feel that the sub will be less problematic. And it feels there PLENTY of DIY designs available.
jm_kzo said:
There have been a lot of discussion on this point. here is my opinion. If you are going to want to watch movies and get the same impression that you get at the theater then you have to have the same SPL as a theater. Thats about 110 - 120 dB SPL max without distortion. A good system like I make will do this, but it takes a very efficient system to reach these levels cleanly.
Lower SPLs will just not "grab" you like they are supposed to.
Read my chapters on home theater at www.gedlee.com you will learn a lot.
Removing center channel is not an option I seriously considered until now (though I kknew it was possible), but I might do (especially considering the "narrowness" of the room)...
Yes Earl, if I have one, it will be identical, behind the screen and centered (and most probabaly leveled with mains).
I think its is amode of the AV amp. It definitely was in the Pro Logic days, I must admit that I have not checked on my Yamaha, but I asuume it must be the same.
I would be really happy if you could explain this a little bit (you are talking to a newbie in lot of domains here).
The questions that your comment raise (in my mind) are :
- what to use that would provide similar dynamics (and eventually similar sound) than the compression + horn of the front ? Is it the kind of things called "super tweeter" or "bullet tweeter"?
- do you get wide directivity by using more drives (the commercial HT dipole rear speakers have one drive toward the front and one toward the back of the room and sometimes other on the "main side") or is it something more special/clever about either the drives or the design of a single drive(+HF unit) loudspeaker ?
Many thanks for schedding some light here, I feel in the dark
.Re your kits, if I remember correctly they indeed do not fit in my budget (by a long mile), but thank you for offering the option anyway.
Thom Holman recommends the surrounds to be dipoles, this is what I do, but Floyd Toole recomends them to be monopoles. Floyd is more interested in multichannel for sound field recreation, Holman more for side fill effects on film. In film the surround channels are used for effect and never get the same level of SPL from them that the mains do. I use fairly small surrounds - dipoles on the side with the dipole axis facing the listener. I use monopoles for the EX channel in the back, but I see you don't have one of those. By far and away the most impoartant speakers are the LR mains. DO NOT sell these short getting a center channel or surrounds. I'd get really good mains even if thats all I had. I would never degrade the mains to buy a center and surrounds. This is just throwing away the main sound trying to get more sound - a bad idea.
The current trend of thoughts...
Finally (for today), I thought I would give you an update on the current trend of thoughts (though everything is still very fluid an moves by the day)...
Ok, so we have conceded that all of this is going to be hard work and we do not really know what we are doing.
There are still question marks about the relevance of having 10' for the fronts as it brings cost challenges (10' are not only more expensive, they require using "bigger" compression for example, they would mate with a DE250, but not a DE10). Some says that a 8' with a DE10 could be enogh...
So as to avoid wasting too much money, we tought we would start working on the configuration that is most likely to be used for rears (DE10 + ME20 + Beyma SM108)...
If we succeed making all this work together, it could happen that it is sounding "good enough", "loud enough" and possibly not that far away from "low enough" (bass) to suit us for the front. We then just have to complete the 5.0 set with all DE10 + SM108 and we end on the cheap side.
If we succeed making all this work together, but we think it is not enough for the front speakers (not enough sound quality, SPL, bass), we keep this configuration for the rear speakesr and we are back to the workshop to do the "same" with better speakers for the front. If we hook up on B&C+Beyam for the rears, we thought that we'd rather stay with B&C and Beyma for the front and would go for either 10G40 or SM110/n + DE250.
If we do not succeed to make the bloody thing work together, we can cry and go to the shop buy a decent commercial set like the Jamo D6... We'd jhave lost a bit of money but can most probably limit the loss by selling the "hardly" used drives on eBay...
Now there are 2 major issues here:
- Sebastian is teasing me with his love for the L8S800... this cannot be completely ignored ;
- Earl shot the "horn for rears" whole concept in flames...
I feel this is not the end of our "newbie designer" quest..., No, not the end at all...
PS: Earl, I am printing your good litterature right now, it will make an excellent "pub dinner on my own" reading!
Finally (for today), I thought I would give you an update on the current trend of thoughts (though everything is still very fluid an moves by the day)...
Ok, so we have conceded that all of this is going to be hard work and we do not really know what we are doing.
There are still question marks about the relevance of having 10' for the fronts as it brings cost challenges (10' are not only more expensive, they require using "bigger" compression for example, they would mate with a DE250, but not a DE10). Some says that a 8' with a DE10 could be enogh...
So as to avoid wasting too much money, we tought we would start working on the configuration that is most likely to be used for rears (DE10 + ME20 + Beyma SM108)...
If we succeed making all this work together, it could happen that it is sounding "good enough", "loud enough" and possibly not that far away from "low enough" (bass) to suit us for the front. We then just have to complete the 5.0 set with all DE10 + SM108 and we end on the cheap side.
If we succeed making all this work together, but we think it is not enough for the front speakers (not enough sound quality, SPL, bass), we keep this configuration for the rear speakesr and we are back to the workshop to do the "same" with better speakers for the front. If we hook up on B&C+Beyam for the rears, we thought that we'd rather stay with B&C and Beyma for the front and would go for either 10G40 or SM110/n + DE250.
If we do not succeed to make the bloody thing work together, we can cry and go to the shop buy a decent commercial set like the Jamo D6... We'd jhave lost a bit of money but can most probably limit the loss by selling the "hardly" used drives on eBay...
Now there are 2 major issues here:
- Sebastian is teasing me with his love for the L8S800
... this cannot be completely ignored ;- Earl shot the "horn for rears" whole concept in flames...
I feel this is not the end of our "newbie designer" quest..., No, not the end at all...
PS: Earl, I am printing your good litterature right now, it will make an excellent "pub dinner on my own" reading!
"we do not really know what we are doing."
Personally I wouldn't agree with this statement. Having built about a dozen rooms like you propose I have a pretty good idea what will work.
I will say that you are headed down a path that will not likely be what you want in the end. "Newbie" designs and construction are seldom "right the first time". The time delay until you do get it right, assuming this ever happens, will be frustrating because the enjoyment that you could be having with a great HT will not be there. DON'T make your HT the gineu pig of your desire experiment with loudspeakers. Go with a proven design.
Personally I wouldn't agree with this statement. Having built about a dozen rooms like you propose I have a pretty good idea what will work.
I will say that you are headed down a path that will not likely be what you want in the end. "Newbie" designs and construction are seldom "right the first time". The time delay until you do get it right, assuming this ever happens, will be frustrating because the enjoyment that you could be having with a great HT will not be there. DON'T make your HT the gineu pig of your desire experiment with loudspeakers. Go with a proven design.
Sorry Earl, big misunderstanding here, when I said "we" above, I meant my friend (who is building a HT room as well, as well as his house, and takes a primary "part" in the project) and me, I would not dare making such statement about you guys (first as I do not know you enough and most importantly, you seem to know your stuff pretty well!).
Sorry again for the misleading wording.
I'm just going to point out that not all "PA" applications use horns. Line sources have some attractive properties... the famous Commodore Ballroom in Vancouver, Canada, installed them when it was refurbished. Stage Accompany builds pro speakers with ribbon tweeters.
I suspect that line sources made up with 5" or 6" mid-woofers, with a "slot" compression tweeter (like a MMTMM or MMMMTMMMM) could sound pretty good, and have wide enough dispersion to cover the audience. With some luck you could get the midwoofers surplus, since this is a common size for normal stereo/HT speakers.
If you've never successfully designed a good speaker before, I strongly advise building from a kit or a proven set of plans. There's enough challenge and satisfaction just in building and assembling that many speakers.
I suspect that line sources made up with 5" or 6" mid-woofers, with a "slot" compression tweeter (like a MMTMM or MMMMTMMMM) could sound pretty good, and have wide enough dispersion to cover the audience. With some luck you could get the midwoofers surplus, since this is a common size for normal stereo/HT speakers.
If you've never successfully designed a good speaker before, I strongly advise building from a kit or a proven set of plans. There's enough challenge and satisfaction just in building and assembling that many speakers.
jm_kzo said:
Corect, but I just use a full range driver to make things easy. As I said, I don't look for full range or high output from the surounds. The bass can be directed to the LFE channel and the subs should be spread arround the room. So all you really need is a pair of decent 6" or 8" units, wirde out of phase in a smll box. I use a cardboard tube with the speakers installed on the ends. There is not SPL inside the box so no need for strength. But distance helps because this increases the dipole moment so that I don't have to EQ up the low end.
Dear Dr. Geddes,
Yes! I agree, thanks for chiming in.
SPL of 110dB to 120dB are reasonable in a HT environment, but the difference is still enormous. Achieving low distortion at 110db SPL using PA components is rather easy (making the right component choice) while 120dB isn't. It also involves ten times the amplifier power, which is another point to take care of when the budget is tight.
I'd go for 120dB SPL(max) at a distortion level around 3% (i.e. -30dB rel. fundamental). I consider this a reasonable goal that can still be achieved the DIY way.
Cheers,
Sebastian.
Yes! I agree, thanks for chiming in.
SPL of 110dB to 120dB are reasonable in a HT environment, but the difference is still enormous. Achieving low distortion at 110db SPL using PA components is rather easy (making the right component choice) while 120dB isn't. It also involves ten times the amplifier power, which is another point to take care of when the budget is tight.
I'd go for 120dB SPL(max) at a distortion level around 3% (i.e. -30dB rel. fundamental). I consider this a reasonable goal that can still be achieved the DIY way.
Cheers,
Sebastian.
Re: The current trend of thoughts...
Hi Jean-Michel,
I'd say this makes the room between screen and "last row" about 3x3m to 3x5m.
It's not difficult to get an 8" speaker "as low as 80Hz".
How about the Beyma 8G40 then. Similar power level, moving mass, efficiency, etc. compared to the L8S800.
Did you read up on monopoles vs. dipoles, i.e. in the link I posted?
And for the record, I shot it first.
Sorry...
There's a big difference between 60 and 80Hz, just as there is a big difference between 110dB and 120dB SPL. An 8" driver can easily go above 110dB SPL at 80Hz in a vented enclosure. A 10" capable of a clean midrange won't neccessarily surpass this.
I actually meant it the other way 'round.
The 10G40 is a very good speaker, and although I didn't get hold of the SM110 yet, I have no doubt that this one can be put to good use, too.
In fact I'm a long term Beyma user myself, currently sitting next to speakers like 18G50, 18LX60, 10M250, 10MI100, CP350/TI, TD235.
I can certainly imagine the Beyma 10G40 to perform very good in your application, just like (i.e.) the 18Sound 10W400 or 10M600, the B&C 10PE26, etc.
But I find the 10" class not required in a home theater of 3x5m in order to achieve the estimated goal of 120dB SPL.
Only to justify my reasoning: I gave you a recommendation to go and rent a Nexo PS10. Let's take a look at some essential numbers in the datasheet:
Sensitivity (1W@1m): 98 dB SPL Nominal
Nominal Peak SPL (@1m): 124 to 127dB Peak
I didn't mention this speaker as a reference for no reason. It is a reference in the industry. Another one you could rent is the Syrincs S3-101, it's just as good for this purpose.
Trying such a thing will tell you wether you require 10" in the mids or not.
OTOH, 10" is not totally oversized either.
There's an English word currently seeping into the German language that springs to my mind at this thought.
That's a good attitude, it will let you survive this project.
You decided to enter the realm of DIY. You didn't really expect it to let go of you again, did you?
Sebastian.
Hi Jean-Michel,
I'd say this makes the room between screen and "last row" about 3x3m to 3x5m.
It's not difficult to get an 8" speaker "as low as 80Hz".
How about the Beyma 8G40 then. Similar power level, moving mass, efficiency, etc. compared to the L8S800.
Did you read up on monopoles vs. dipoles, i.e. in the link I posted?
And for the record, I shot it first.
Sorry...
There's a big difference between 60 and 80Hz, just as there is a big difference between 110dB and 120dB SPL. An 8" driver can easily go above 110dB SPL at 80Hz in a vented enclosure. A 10" capable of a clean midrange won't neccessarily surpass this.
Sebastian, actually I missed this bit yesterday, but I am keen for you to expand on this.
Is it the 10G40 you do not like full stop (because the SM110/n look like another good candidate), the Beymas, or just the value for money is not right. Please, speak your mind
I actually meant it the other way 'round.
The 10G40 is a very good speaker, and although I didn't get hold of the SM110 yet, I have no doubt that this one can be put to good use, too.
In fact I'm a long term Beyma user myself, currently sitting next to speakers like 18G50, 18LX60, 10M250, 10MI100, CP350/TI, TD235.
I can certainly imagine the Beyma 10G40 to perform very good in your application, just like (i.e.) the 18Sound 10W400 or 10M600, the B&C 10PE26, etc.
But I find the 10" class not required in a home theater of 3x5m in order to achieve the estimated goal of 120dB SPL.
Only to justify my reasoning: I gave you a recommendation to go and rent a Nexo PS10. Let's take a look at some essential numbers in the datasheet:
Sensitivity (1W@1m): 98 dB SPL Nominal
Nominal Peak SPL (@1m): 124 to 127dB Peak
I didn't mention this speaker as a reference for no reason. It is a reference in the industry. Another one you could rent is the Syrincs S3-101, it's just as good for this purpose.
Trying such a thing will tell you wether you require 10" in the mids or not.
OTOH, 10" is not totally oversized either.
There's an English word currently seeping into the German language that springs to my mind at this thought.
That's a good attitude, it will let you survive this project.
You decided to enter the realm of DIY. You didn't really expect it to let go of you again, did you?
Sebastian.
Since several questions have been asked of me,I will add some more info about my system,and hopefully answer everyone at the same time.
My room is 4.1 meters wide,5.94 m long,and 2.44 m high.Main speakers have center to center spacing of 2.9 m.Works fine without a center channel,the main speakers fill in the sound.
Screen is 3.2 m diagonal.
Most AV receivers have a phantom mode,(mine is a Yamaha),just select none for center channel,and the center info gets redirected to the mains.the mains and surround speakers are set on "small",so the low frequencies are redirected to the subwoofers.I use two subs(tapped horns)which are on the other side of the wall,(one in the garage,one in a closet) fed into the listening room through holes in the wall.
Since the Adire HE10.1 used a modified tweeter,and is no longer available,it is not possible to say how the currently available driver and crossover compares.
The HE10.1 is somewhat directional(as are most horns),but should work fine in a relatively narrow room such as yours.Since I am so close to them as surrounds.the directivity is not ideal,but I have them pointing straight at my listening position,so they work fine.
Will have to try dipoles sometime,but is not a priority at this time.
Since you are new to building speakers,and not completely sure what the best solution is,it might be better to spend your entire speaker budget on just the mains and subwoofer, After you get them up and running,you can add surrounds at a later date.
My room is 4.1 meters wide,5.94 m long,and 2.44 m high.Main speakers have center to center spacing of 2.9 m.Works fine without a center channel,the main speakers fill in the sound.
Screen is 3.2 m diagonal.
Most AV receivers have a phantom mode,(mine is a Yamaha),just select none for center channel,and the center info gets redirected to the mains.the mains and surround speakers are set on "small",so the low frequencies are redirected to the subwoofers.I use two subs(tapped horns)which are on the other side of the wall,(one in the garage,one in a closet) fed into the listening room through holes in the wall.
Since the Adire HE10.1 used a modified tweeter,and is no longer available,it is not possible to say how the currently available driver and crossover compares.
The HE10.1 is somewhat directional(as are most horns),but should work fine in a relatively narrow room such as yours.Since I am so close to them as surrounds.the directivity is not ideal,but I have them pointing straight at my listening position,so they work fine.
Will have to try dipoles sometime,but is not a priority at this time.
Since you are new to building speakers,and not completely sure what the best solution is,it might be better to spend your entire speaker budget on just the mains and subwoofer, After you get them up and running,you can add surrounds at a later date.
Don Bunce said:
I can understand Dr. Geddes' and Don's suggestion, although I'd say it's a tad little exaggerated.
I wouldn't spend the entire budget on the front and the bass, but most part. My recommendation is to favor two very good mains over three average mains. The rears still have to be good enough to support the room, but they certainly don't need to be identical to the front (for HT, as opposed to multichannel hifi). And if they are planned to be used right from the beginning, they will have to be paid for.
I also have to say that Jean-Michel really seems to take the bass too lightly (pun...
). Sebastian.
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