Like this
Baffle/table-top w/ drivers "up-firing":
Perspective: Looking down to baffle/table-top:
(D-1 through 12 are each of the fullrange drivers.)
Rear edge of baffle/table-top v
.....................................................................................................................
D1, D2, D3, D4, separation D5, D6, D7, D8, separation D9,D10,D11,D12
Midbass 1, separation Midbass 2, separation Midbass 3
.....................................................................................................................
Front edge of baffle/table-top ^
Imagine the top of the channel-bar pic. below being the baffle/table-top.
The entire rear and the sides will be *"open" as seen in the channel-bar pic..
http://www.kingmetals.com/Catalog/Media/Images/6684-K01-0010195_l.jpg
*by "open" I mean acoustically. (..I'm thinking of using perforated board to "close" the rear and sides aesthetically.)
(..it will probably be a month or more before I'll have it put together and installed. At that time I'll either generate a thread for it with a link in this thread, or simply post it in this thread.)
Baffle/table-top w/ drivers "up-firing":
Perspective: Looking down to baffle/table-top:
(D-1 through 12 are each of the fullrange drivers.)
Rear edge of baffle/table-top v
.....................................................................................................................
D1, D2, D3, D4, separation D5, D6, D7, D8, separation D9,D10,D11,D12
Midbass 1, separation Midbass 2, separation Midbass 3
.....................................................................................................................
Front edge of baffle/table-top ^
Imagine the top of the channel-bar pic. below being the baffle/table-top.
The entire rear and the sides will be *"open" as seen in the channel-bar pic..
http://www.kingmetals.com/Catalog/Media/Images/6684-K01-0010195_l.jpg
*by "open" I mean acoustically. (..I'm thinking of using perforated board to "close" the rear and sides aesthetically.)
(..it will probably be a month or more before I'll have it put together and installed. At that time I'll either generate a thread for it with a link in this thread, or simply post it in this thread.)
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Joined 2009
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..as for me, I finished the array quite a while ago. But then I got bogged-down with in-ceiling surround/effects channels, the screen and projector, and still haven't finished the chairs with their bass actuators. (..it's not surprising though when you consider that I've also been remodeling that portion of our house with gym and craft room.)
Just finished the gym and am now back working on the chair riser/isolation "legs" and platform. (..isolation is needed to keep the bass actuators from "sinking" energy to the floor instead of the chair's frame.)
I did run into problems with the receiver and its digital auto-eq.: it only lets me use the surround configuration I want with the front channel group with a high-pass at 100 Hz (..instead of the 80 Hz I was planning). I've no idea yet how that will factor-in with the bass shakers (up that high in freq.).
-I guess the moral of that particular story is: if you are using a receiver's auto-eq. to compensate for off-axis treble loss with a radial speaker configuration, then you better know how it functions first.
Just finished the gym and am now back working on the chair riser/isolation "legs" and platform. (..isolation is needed to keep the bass actuators from "sinking" energy to the floor instead of the chair's frame.)
I did run into problems with the receiver and its digital auto-eq.: it only lets me use the surround configuration I want with the front channel group with a high-pass at 100 Hz (..instead of the 80 Hz I was planning). I've no idea yet how that will factor-in with the bass shakers (up that high in freq.).
-I guess the moral of that particular story is: if you are using a receiver's auto-eq. to compensate for off-axis treble loss with a radial speaker configuration, then you better know how it functions first.
Good morning.
So far I have read the first 105 pages of this thread. I was attracted to it because of the similarity in my own thinking as regards the postings of Graaf and my own experiments . I do not possess a great deal of technical knowledge but i know what i like and being a musician then maybe i have a handle on what sounds realistic to me (some may argue otherwise).
I moved from conventional point and squirt speakers to a semi omni approach about two years ago. I much prefer the presentation this way
My 12" woofers fire downwards, 5" mid bass fires straight up and the tweeters fire forward.
Recently i had got to thinking about true infinite baffle speakers with drivers mounted in the floor using the floor as the baffle. I have a void volume under the suspended floor of over 10 times the combined VAS of the drivers i intend to use.
The thought occurred to me that this arrangement with bass driver in the floor would save a lot of space and have good WAF. So my thought's then turned to mounting all three drivers in the floor (12", 5" and 1" soft dome tweeter).
I am still in the thinking stage with this and trying to find information on the internet about this arrangement is like finding a needle in a hay stack and then who knows what to believe anyway. I think the only way forward for me is to try it and see.
I have found some of the contents of this thread so far to be very interesting and helpful if not entirely relevant to my proposal.
Many thanks for the thread Graaf.
So far I have read the first 105 pages of this thread. I was attracted to it because of the similarity in my own thinking as regards the postings of Graaf and my own experiments . I do not possess a great deal of technical knowledge but i know what i like and being a musician then maybe i have a handle on what sounds realistic to me (some may argue otherwise).
I moved from conventional point and squirt speakers to a semi omni approach about two years ago. I much prefer the presentation this way
My 12" woofers fire downwards, 5" mid bass fires straight up and the tweeters fire forward. Recently i had got to thinking about true infinite baffle speakers with drivers mounted in the floor using the floor as the baffle. I have a void volume under the suspended floor of over 10 times the combined VAS of the drivers i intend to use.
The thought occurred to me that this arrangement with bass driver in the floor would save a lot of space and have good WAF. So my thought's then turned to mounting all three drivers in the floor (12", 5" and 1" soft dome tweeter).
I am still in the thinking stage with this and trying to find information on the internet about this arrangement is like finding a needle in a hay stack
and then who knows what to believe anyway. I think the only way forward for me is to try it and see. I have found some of the contents of this thread so far to be very interesting and helpful if not entirely relevant to my proposal.
Many thanks for the thread Graaf.
I might point your interest also to the unconventional speaker designed by DiyAudio member Claudiogan: My 34c9 (omnidirectional full range with 3FE22) build
It kind of also fits to this thread, since it is floor coupled, up firing and omnidirectional as well. It has all the limitations of the full range speaker used. It definitely needs some help at the low end. For low listening levels, it needs just a bit of EQ, for louder listening a mono subwoofer will do the job (I tested that). The high end is quite OK, but it may benefit also from a bit of EQ. I still have not decided if the boost is needed or not.
It kind of also fits to this thread, since it is floor coupled, up firing and omnidirectional as well. It has all the limitations of the full range speaker used. It definitely needs some help at the low end. For low listening levels, it needs just a bit of EQ, for louder listening a mono subwoofer will do the job (I tested that). The high end is quite OK, but it may benefit also from a bit of EQ. I still have not decided if the boost is needed or not.
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Joined 2009
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would you really cut a hole in your floor ? I simply could not do that kind of damage.
Absolutely. If i had to back track and reverse everything then it would not take much effort to put it back to how it was before. All worth it (imo) in the act of experimentation. Doing is the only way to learn in my experience.
Not sure a link to this has been posted yet in this thread
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQPllTVBeDgv3JGC-0FiC2x9pp8G1ll8V9FMEYacfsgP-uqa7sw
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQPllTVBeDgv3JGC-0FiC2x9pp8G1ll8V9FMEYacfsgP-uqa7sw
That's generally the only way forward
You're very much welcome!
Hi Graaf.
Those speakers are NVA Cube's. Like the Allison 6 they are cube shaped with mid bass firing up and tweeter forward firing. Made out of acrylic. No crossover - mid bass is doped for roll off of higher frequencies and flattening out any spikes in the response. Tweeter just has a single capacitor and padding resistor.
AudioKinesis Speaker Design – James Romeyn
A direct sound horn based loudspeakers paired with an integrated backward tilted flooder. The horn section makes the whole concept more acceptable from the perspective of preconceptions and biases of a typical audiophile customer.
Here how a "Space generator" looks when integrated into a stand:
SuperStand – James Romeyn
Whereas a separate add-on "Space generator"
...is basically just a plain full range flooder aka "FCUFS" with a backward tilt.
This backward tilt is a very clever idea
A direct sound horn based loudspeakers paired with an integrated backward tilted flooder. The horn section makes the whole concept more acceptable from the perspective of preconceptions and biases of a typical audiophile customer.
Here how a "Space generator" looks when integrated into a stand:
SuperStand – James Romeyn
Whereas a separate add-on "Space generator"
...is basically just a plain full range flooder aka "FCUFS" with a backward tilt.
This backward tilt is a very clever idea
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I'm currently working on something similar for my HT.
..a 14 foot "sound bar" for the front 3 channels that's somewhat dipolar.
As an update on this.
I "finished" the "soundbar" about a year ago (or is that 2 years???), but have been working on the other aspects of the HT ever since then.
.."other aspects" being a large riser platform for the HT Recliners.
Anyway, I did come across a DISADVANTAGE to Floor Coupled Up-Firing Loudspeakers. (..and it's something I thought would likely be a problem when I started it.)
The problem is when you have a Dolby Atmos setup AND you have a setup with front drivers that have a naturally "diffused" (combed result) and/or a naturally lower pressure (even if corrected with DSP) treble response.
In my case I've got both: no tweeter and a horizontal line of up-firing 4" full range drivers (salvaged from an array). Note: the pressure is corrected in DSP at the listening position, so it's not like treble is basically missing.
It's OK if I do NOT engage the FRONT ceiling speakers (which are "downward-firing").
However when activating the FRONT ceiling speakers: dialog tracking becomes at best "swampy" - resulting in very indistinct dialog tracking across the screen.
A tweeter should solve this problem (and I've got them to do an additional small tweeter "bar" right behind the main "sound bar"), but I'm still working on the riser platform.
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actually three of them - it can be a fullrange or a 2-way coaxial or a wide range compression driver into a horn
I see, so it is a disadvantage in a Home Theater setup with Dolby Atmos in-ceiling speakers?
-yes, definitely a disadvantage for Atmos ..and probably a disadvantage for ceiling speakers OR other up-firing speakers designed for those two L & R front effects speakers that Atmos provides. See #6 in picture.
I think Atmos is essentially trying to achieve what an up-firing loudspeaker does (increased monophonic emphasis and later arrival of treble giving a greater sense of height), and having that effect "doubled-up" screws-up the sound (..or rather dialog tracking on-screen).
I think Atmos is essentially trying to achieve what an up-firing loudspeaker does (increased monophonic emphasis and later arrival of treble giving a greater sense of height), and having that effect "doubled-up" screws-up the sound (..or rather dialog tracking on-screen).
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