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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

What causes listening "fatigue"?
What causes listening "fatigue"?
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Old 18th September 2020, 12:43 AM   #1631
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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I heard that Ted was actually not responsible for that Metallica album. I feel sorry about it...
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Old 18th September 2020, 01:15 AM   #1632
plasnu is offline plasnu  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darwin View Post
I've been through a few of CLA mixes for other bands/artists and they are all pretty similar to this while the mastering engineer Ted Jensen around the same time did stuff with much greater dynamics.
I'm curious why I do feel CLA mix is not over compressed, so I checked a few records here. Many of them are too much compressed obviously, but even so, they sound absolutely fine for me. DR is about 6-9dB, which is normal for pop music today.

Anyway, we can check DR chart at loudness-war.info. For example, Bruce Springsteen's 2012 album, Wrecking Ball, the dynamic range of CLA track is the same as the other mixing engineers on the same album. Also you can look at the vinyl version's DR of the same album, they are around 11dB, which is pretty healthy, so we can see that over compression was obviously done at digital mastering stage. We can't achieve 5dB dynamic range with analog equipments anyway, and CLA does not use digital compression at his 2 bus as far as I know. I think he uses Focusrite Red comp.

Bruce Springsteen 11dB
Album details - Dynamic Range Database

American Idiot (Edition Studio Masters) 9-10dB
Album details - Dynamic Range Database

Last edited by plasnu; 18th September 2020 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 26th September 2020, 07:12 PM   #1633
tmuikku is offline tmuikku  Finland
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Kind of related thing just popped into my mind, does difference in distortion between a multiway speaker drivers affect fatigue? for example a steep lowpass on a woofer attenuates harmonics of said woofers upper register, then comes in the tweeter with possibly a bit too low crossover point having much more harmonics generated and audible at the lower register making the whole system distortion vary? Anybody have thoughts over this? are the distortion figures attenuated with the driver response since the distortion generating driver is after the electronic crossover making this non issue? What if one of the drivers had worse distortion graph in general than the other driver(s)? do speaker designers ever consider this distortion "uniformnes" or is it just minimizing the system distortion in general? thanks.

ps anyone have checked if different kind on technology (woofers/tweeter/compression drivers/ribbons) have dirrerent distribution of 2nd and 3rd harmonics that could make a sudden jump in system distortion distribution near crossover?

Last edited by tmuikku; 26th September 2020 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 26th September 2020, 09:40 PM   #1634
Pharos is offline Pharos  United Kingdom
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The distortion products from any given driver are a failure of that driver at the driven frequency, and this produces artefacts at a higher frequency which a steep Xover will not attenuate, it is mainly mechanical in nature.

This applies particularly to metal cone midranges and woofers which make a hell of a racket above their pass band, these excited by the passband energy.

Regardless of the steepness of the attenuation due to a Xover, if the tone is in the middle of the pass band, and it is a poor driver, it will distort that tone; the steep Xover has no effect on it, but serves only to prevent the driver giving a deliberate O/P outside its good, and hence used range.

In the design process the aim is to get the best from each driver, curtailing the passbands to get that, and distortion products being one consideration in choosing the operating band. Running tweeters too low is a problem which often produces horrible distortion.
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Old 27th September 2020, 04:11 PM   #1635
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
With music compressed and played loud, you have two vectors for fatigue. First, there is the loudness per se. Second, there is something that might be called "density". In classical music, there is an ebb and flow of almost all the music elements, with quiet parts between the loud parts. With the awful pulsating dance music, maybe no rest for your ears at any point before the blessed end.

B.
I hope that you guys realize that you are talking about two different things simultaneously. There is "fatigue" from the musical source and there is "fatigue" from the playback system. The two things are completely different and shouldn't be mixed together.

I only care about "fatigue" from the playback since I'll select the music source that I don't find fatiguing. Source choice is a personal matter, playback fatigue is a design issue.
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Old 27th September 2020, 04:58 PM   #1636
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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What causes listening "fatigue"?
Right.

Might be worth considering what shortcomings of sources can be ameliorated by what users can do in playback? "Expansion" comes to mind... however unlikely to help.*

The smart folks who re-process Caruso recordings must have clean-up tools for sources? And on the opposite hand, RCA vinyl records had distortion added to compensate for cartridge tracking error (yuck, bad idea) which is distorting the source to clean up the playback gear.

There is some overlap in the kinds of crap introduced by sources and by playback. So times when hard to discriminate. While records are produced with intentional sonic garbage added (anything with an electric guitar, eh), Rice-Kellogg drivers kindly add mostly musical harmonic distortion which is better digested.


B.
*Hello old timers, remember expanders using incandescent bulbs?
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Last edited by bentoronto; 27th September 2020 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 27th September 2020, 07:00 PM   #1637
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Right.

Might be worth considering what shortcomings of sources can be ameliorated by what users can do in playback?
Yea, not to me there isn't. The art is the art.
Quote:
The smart folks who re-process Caruso recordings must have clean-up tools for sources?
"Cleaning up" a recording back to its more "original state" is a fine thing to do.
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Old 27th September 2020, 07:06 PM   #1638
digitalthor is offline digitalthor  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pharos View Post
The distortion products from any given driver are a failure of that driver at the driven frequency, and this produces artefacts at a higher frequency which a steep Xover will not attenuate, it is mainly mechanical in nature.

This applies particularly to metal cone midranges and woofers which make a hell of a racket above their pass band, these excited by the passband energy.

Regardless of the steepness of the attenuation due to a Xover, if the tone is in the middle of the pass band, and it is a poor driver, it will distort that tone; the steep Xover has no effect on it, but serves only to prevent the driver giving a deliberate O/P outside its good, and hence used range.

Interesting. I have heard a lot of speakers, my own included with metal drivers.... and I dont find them tiring.
So maybe theres a limit, to where you cant hear such distortion you mention?
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Old 27th September 2020, 08:49 PM   #1639
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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What causes listening "fatigue"?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmuikku View Post
Kind of related thing just popped into my mind, does difference in distortion between a multiway speaker drivers affect fatigue? for example a steep lowpass on a woofer attenuates harmonics of said woofers upper register, then comes in the tweeter with possibly a bit too low crossover point having much more harmonics generated and audible at the lower register making the whole system distortion vary? Anybody have thoughts over this? are the distortion figures attenuated with the driver response since the distortion generating driver is after the electronic crossover making this non issue? What if one of the drivers had worse distortion graph in general than the other driver(s)? do speaker designers ever consider this distortion "uniformnes" or is it just minimizing the system distortion in general? thanks.

ps anyone have checked if different kind on technology (woofers/tweeter/compression drivers/ribbons) have dirrerent distribution of 2nd and 3rd harmonics that could make a sudden jump in system distortion distribution near crossover?
Hi tmuikku, my take is that the lower range of a driver's passband is pretty much always where the weakness lies.
I mean, it's where excursion is maximum, it's where BL is losing linearity.

So, like you say, asking a tweeter to dig too low will suck.

But this is where a steep HPF xover to the tweeter can be a benefit.
You can take the tweeter lower when steeper, with less excursion worries, than when trying the same xover freq with a shallower xover..

Only problem then is the higher-order xover that is needed for steep....excess phase wrap, screwed up group delay, ....iow and simply said, blown timing.

And tis why linear phase xovers rule, almightily so, amen so be it, forever and ever
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Old 27th September 2020, 10:15 PM   #1640
Pharos is offline Pharos  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalthor View Post
Interesting. I have heard a lot of speakers, my own included with metal drivers.... and I dont find them tiring.
So maybe theres a limit, to where you cant hear such distortion you mention?
The resonances in the metal cones were pointed out to me in discussion with a professional designer, whilst we were contemplating a design using the Heil.

We googled, and I think it was Scanspeak anodised cones which showed severe breakup in the mid, above the pass band.
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