Best horn/compression drivers for music?

[limono]

I am not Bert Doppenberg and I had and was using my BMS coaxes a good 5 years before him. I live in Australia. How amusement.

Sorry to continue this Al, but I felt that needed clarifying. Ends here for me.

And for me too

 

[Daveis]

Does anyone have links to THD/IMD measurements to Compression driver/horn's? Similar to the one I posted earlier.

What's a pan or pancake driver?

 

[SamL]

Beyma compression driver include the H2 and H3 distortion curve.
http://profesional.beyma.com/ENGLISH/producto.php

Don't think B&C include them.
http://www.bcspeakers.com/index.php?sez=1&categoria=4

BMS seems to have something but can be hard to read.
http://www.bmspro.info/?&show=item&usbid=10267

Have fun

 

[Pano]

I heard TADs in CAR horns - they were harsh -sorry

TAD drivers harsh??? That's a new one on me. I guess they could be, if used wrong. I think I've heard some overdriven TADS in PA systems, but all CDs sound harsh there, just too much power and not great horns.

The TAD drivers I've heard in Hi-Fi systems certainly didn't sound harsh to me. Quite to opposite. And very detailed, too. Maybe it was the "CAR" horn? I don't know that one. Do you mean CAR as in Automobile?

 

[Brett]

Do you mean CAR as in Automobile?

Classic Audio Reproductions, so it was possibly one of the radial TAD flares.

 

[Pano]

Thanks Brett, I'd forgotten about them.
Never actually heard one, just seen on the web.

 

[Brett]

Never actually heard one, just seen on the web.

Me either, but the flare is similar to the Yuichi Arai which I built and isn't harsh at all.

 

[Magnetar]

TAD drivers harsh??? That's a new one on me. I guess they could be, if used wrong. I think I've heard some overdriven TADS in PA systems, but all CDs sound harsh there, just too much power and not great horns.

The TAD drivers I've heard in Hi-Fi systems certainly didn't sound harsh to me. Quite to opposite. And very detailed, too. Maybe it was the "CAR" horn? I don't know that one. Do you mean CAR as in Automobile?

I've had the 4001, 4002, and 2001. The large format drivers are hyper detailed because of the phase plug, the break up (treble) is not smooth and after extended listening (months) you realize they are not very musical in the treble. The 2001 small format is nothing at all special. It suffers from the same problem but they also has mediocre mid range response. These observations are based on loading them in various round tractrix horns and driven by direct heated class A triodes, PP EL84, EL34 and Pass class A aleph amps.

TAD's are like falling in love with a beauty queen and then finding out she farts in bed.

 

[ScottG]

I seem to remember posts by others on the Hi Eff. board of the AA where TAD owners "lost" their precious (be) diaphragms, had them replaced by Radian's Alloy versions - and thought the drivers were actually substantially improved (over the driver's previous best efforts).

A classic example of Caveat Emptor. (a.k.a. purchase a Radian initially or buy yourself a jar of vaseline for when you purchase the TAD drivers.)

Anyway, that was intimated in the thread I posted to originally..

IMO the only compression drivers I don't have "input" on (and looks interesting), is the stuff from 18 Sound. In particular their 2 inch exit aluminum version and their titanium nitride drivers when compared to some of the better compression drivers available.

 

[Magnetar]

I'm still in love with my ugly duckling Emilars, they do the most right. I put them above the 2440/2441 JBL, big EV, Altecs and Vitavox- Wish I would of kept the six inch aluminum diaphram three inch exit EC600's though, best midrange I've ever heard in my room. The two inch exit 320 is close but doesn't go as low - The 320 Emilar treble is better than the TADs, so is the mids (very close). A real sleeper for treble duty is the EK175, it has a 800 Hz flare in the exit versus the slow flares on most compression drivers, sweet, dynamic and defined.

Here is a system using EC600 for upper bass, EC600 for mid and EK175 for treble - around 108 db/w/m

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

 

[Brett]

The two inch exit 320 is close but doesn't go as low - The 320 Emilar treble is better than the TADs, so is the mids (very close).

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

Interesting Mike. I have a single EC320 with a new diaphram and MH500 radial flare that I bought a few years ago for some reason or another. I have a line on another single pair the same, but needs a disphram (I know where I can get one). Might have to try them now. How low would you use the EC320?

Cheers

 

[Tim Moorman]

Another Option

Magnetar,

Always wanted to hear that one, and those monster EC600s!

Daveis,

I like the Community M200 midrange. Mylar diaphragm, shallow profile, and, in my opinion, slightly smoother than the JBL 2440 within its bandwidth - 400Hz to 3500Hz.

The exit geometry/flare rate for the JBL 2440 and TAD 2001 are similar, in that both have deeply recessed diaphragms, I suppose due to the low resonance (the 2001 ~ 340 Hz) and magnet/motor design.

When measured a few years ago, the Radian 475 didn't measure as well as the 2001, with a couple of extra peaks in the response, but were fairly close.

I included the Altec MR901 1" as a comparo. Also relatively shallow.

I do believe that with better materials and simulation tools now available, the choices offered by BMS, B&C, and Radian, among others, will all sound very good on the right horn, and contoured/EQ'd as needed.

Tim

 

[Tim Moorman]

another view

Reversed:

1" Altec MR901... 2" JBL2440... 1" TAD 2001... 2"Community M200 on 90 x40 horn

All sound decent to very good on the right horn.

I would look at the Beyma 1" drivers, and the JBL 2435 looks to be a winner in the 1.5" exit category.

Tim

 

[Magnetar]

Cheers

Bret, the biggest horn I have used them with is a 360 flare tractrix. They only load (usable) down to 650 or so. I don't think they'd do much better in a bigger better loading horn. Just picked a new pair of One Plus Engineering 320C's - I am going to use them with my PAS CX2580C fifteen inch coax with the large format horn built in. The PAS are warming up right now in 24" spherical enclosures, they are very good. So far I like them better than all the other coax's (I have a wall of them!) in the midrange. The top end rolls off nicely with lno peaks. With the PAS and the 320's I might have to build a new reference.

 

[Brett]

Bret, the biggest horn I have used them with is a 360 flare tractrix. They only load (usable) down to 650 or so. I don't think they'd do much better in a bigger better loading horn.

Thanks Mike. I have a trax design that does 150-700 very well so these above may work

Just picked a new pair of One Plus Engineering 320C's - I am going to use them with my PAS CX2580C fifteen inch coax with the large format horn built in. The PAS are warming up right now in 24" spherical enclosures, they are very good. So far I like them better than all the other coax's (I have a wall of them!) in the midrange. The top end rolls off nicely with lno peaks. With the PAS and the 320's I might have to build a new reference.

I missed out on those ebay ones yesteday, and was hoping they'd work well with the BMS coax CD's for a nice triax. Maybe another pair will come up.

Because of space limitations at the moment, I'm actually using my KHorn bass bins, but want to keep them to 60-200 where they don't sound too bad, so am looking for solutions to work above them that'll still sound good in the near field.

 

[Magnetar]

Thanks Mike. I have a trax design that does 150-700 very well so these above may work
I missed out on those ebay ones yesteday, and was hoping they'd work well with the BMS coax CD's for a nice triax. Maybe another pair will come up.

Because of space limitations at the moment, I'm actually using my KHorn bass bins, but want to keep them to 60-200 where they don't sound too bad, so am looking for solutions to work above them that'll still sound good in the near field.

Email the fellow, he has a lot of them.. NICE driver for 75 US each

PAS has the blue foam horn end terminators for them too - 17.00 from the factory

These are sounding good in the spheres. I'm thinking of lugging my Klams in to use below them ----- It should be shocking - I miss the Klam punching shock wave with the OB system

 

[Paul W]

18 Sound info

Scott,
Here is FR for the 18Sound 2" drivers on a 2064 horn...

2060 (titanium) distortion...

2060A (aluminum/mylar)

2080 (titanium)

2080N (titanium nitride)

It's interesting (at least to me) how the aluminum dome & mylar surround has lower distortion down low while the titanium variants have lower distortion on the top end. These are the first actual measurements I've seen corresponding with the subjective observations of "smoother midrange" reported for aluminum domes with plastic surrounds.
Paul

 

[Daveis]

PaulW, what SPL was that measurement done at?

 

[ScottG]

Mon Graci!

It is an interesting comparison. I would have thought the alu. would have been worse at any given freq.. Seems if you need a usable lower end response to stay away from titanium. I also would have liked to have seen the higher "orders" - could be some real problems with that (with some IM distortion just waiting to be given enough bandwidth to strut its stuff). This all suggests to me that such drivers should not only be crossed sufficiently above their horns "cut-off" (..and/or with steep filters), but perhaps more importantly that the horn should NOT load the driver at its lowest freq. where its running into problems, rather let the freq. response drop-off into the abyss. (..I was aware of the former, but completely unaware of the latter.)

The other thing that "jumps out at me" here is the "structure" of the 2nd order distortion. It almost seems as if the alu. version has been "smoothed/averaged" when compared to the titaniums. Makes me wonder if the various drivers have complementary linear decay properties?

 

[Daveis]

PaulW, what SPL was that measurement done at?

I guess I could have assumed about 110-115 db like the first graph?

What would the graphs look like at 85-90db? That's where I usually listen to music.