hi,
new here, hello again !
For a high-power-subwoofer-hifi-system I'm not sure using 2x 15/18" cones - 4"-VCs or for identical cone area 4 or 6x 12" cones with 2" VCs. Does anybody have experience ?
Power-compression/distortion is better at large VC-design one speaker alone compared the 12" alone. Can calculate by speaker-datas cross-limits depending of frequency or SPL.
Several cones-design should have more sound-attack, shouldn't it ...? Thanks for comments !
Rob
new here, hello again !
For a high-power-subwoofer-hifi-system I'm not sure using 2x 15/18" cones - 4"-VCs or for identical cone area 4 or 6x 12" cones with 2" VCs. Does anybody have experience ?
Power-compression/distortion is better at large VC-design one speaker alone compared the 12" alone. Can calculate by speaker-datas cross-limits depending of frequency or SPL.
Several cones-design should have more sound-attack, shouldn't it ...? Thanks for comments !
Rob
Brett said:
Even so, The 2 -12s with 12mm xmax will have more displacement than most single 18, and most 18 arent even designed for subwoofer duty, so thier cones are not as rigid as 12" subs .
Added to the fact that, a good quality 18" sub. is much more expensive than 2 good quality 12" subs. And that there are plenty of 12" subs to choose from, whether for home use or car. The same thing cannot be said for 18s.
Therefore , 4- 12" makes more sense to me that 2 - 18s. But that's just me.
vajolet said:
A bipole subwoofer line array with mass cancellation from mirrored driver cabinets is very good for charging a room and reducing room resonant modes. The Martin Logan Statement2 used a multi-box line array of bipole subwoofers, each box using mirrored 2-driver mass cancellation. This seems like a good solution to getting deep bass by pressurizing the room below the room's lowest frequency mode.
From my experiemce, the 15" woofers in the market provide the best combination of impulse responise and deep bass. Treated paper cone woofers with 20Hz Fs, strong magnets, and ~15mm Xmax are readily available. Subwoofer harmonics can reach up into midbass vocals, and metal cone break-up is audible even with -24db of Xover attenuation. Many metal coine 15" subwoofers have over 300g Mms, while treated paper cones are tyically under 150g. I favor woofers/subwoofers which produce good human voice at 80-160hz.
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I would never use a single driver in a standard sealed or ported box under 150Hz again, except OB's and TH's.marchel said:
As for cone rigidity: proof please.
Wouldn't know about car gear: not interested and I ride as often as not. Silence in the car is wonderful. I can think of 6 or 8 new 18's OTTOMH that would work well, esp with an LT. Several others as obsolete drivers that are available. JBL 2245 for example. When you factor in the differences in efficiency and power compression, I severely doubt some of the claims for car drivers that I've seen online and by chance in some fora. then when you factor in distortion due to displacement, then those hard working little 12's don't seem so good to me.marchel said:
Oh, FWIW, I'm going to build some TH with 12's in them next weekend, so they do have some use.
As for price, that's highly variable depending where you are in the world and whether you have to import or not. Go outside of the US or EU and it's very different.
You have your view, fine. I have mine based upon my own experience..
"Wouldn't know about car gear: not interested and I ride as often as not. Silence in the car is wonderful. "
What I was saying was , You can choose to use car subwoofer driver for your home, cause, Most 12" car subwoofers are suitable for use in home. The prameters for car and home subwoofer drivers are similar. example Fs around 25hz, qtc between .3 to .45 (well, mostly) and Vas are also similar.
I have a 12" rockford fosgate punch sub. in my room , on a 2 cubic ft. box , ASAICR, The parameters of the sub are, FS 23hz, QTC .35 and Vas of around 2.5 cubic ft. It has a cast frame and a 3" VC and a big magnet for a 12 incher, it only cost me 140 usd. cause it was on sale, But so are plenty of 12" car subs are always on sale.
That sub is louder than my B&W 12" sub which I paid 1,300 usd.
BTW, they both sound good though, albeit, a little different sound quality.
What I was saying was , You can choose to use car subwoofer driver for your home, cause, Most 12" car subwoofers are suitable for use in home. The prameters for car and home subwoofer drivers are similar. example Fs around 25hz, qtc between .3 to .45 (well, mostly) and Vas are also similar.
I have a 12" rockford fosgate punch sub. in my room , on a 2 cubic ft. box , ASAICR, The parameters of the sub are, FS 23hz, QTC .35 and Vas of around 2.5 cubic ft. It has a cast frame and a 3" VC and a big magnet for a 12 incher, it only cost me 140 usd. cause it was on sale, But so are plenty of 12" car subs are always on sale.
That sub is louder than my B&W 12" sub which I paid 1,300 usd.
BTW, they both sound good though, albeit, a little different sound quality.
thanks folks,you confirm existing ideas. Project is a hifi-/cinema-application, no car !
Possible low-end-drivers:
ATC-SB75-314 sophisticated (old) brand, 75mm VC long travel, expensive
CIARE 12.00 SW 100mmVC, 11.5mm coil travel, price-value !
top-end:
2x audax PR170 ZO + 1x (XT1086+1030-1")18sound in d'Appolito
the audaxes feature a HDA-cone, analytic but loud, low distortion. There are louder ones, but not so "warm".
Rob
Fair enough Marcel.
Vajolet: Ciare 12.00 SW is supposedly a good driver
PR170 in MTM, likewise excellent, but I would suggest the XT120 and the 1020, because of centre to centre distances in the MTM and the 1020 is the same as the 1030, but with a poly diaphram.
However, I'm not sure the Ciare will go low enough for a sub (Fs=43) nor high enough to meet the Audax clean. As an OTTOMH solution, perhaps the 12NMB420 in a sealed enclosure, and a dedicated sub for below 80Hz or so. More expensive, but you'd have an exceptional high efficiency full range system. Just suggesting....
Vajolet: Ciare 12.00 SW is supposedly a good driver
PR170 in MTM, likewise excellent, but I would suggest the XT120 and the 1020, because of centre to centre distances in the MTM and the 1020 is the same as the 1030, but with a poly diaphram.
However, I'm not sure the Ciare will go low enough for a sub (Fs=43) nor high enough to meet the Audax clean. As an OTTOMH solution, perhaps the 12NMB420 in a sealed enclosure, and a dedicated sub for below 80Hz or so. More expensive, but you'd have an exceptional high efficiency full range system. Just suggesting....
hi Brett,many thanks for comments !
Cone break-up of the 12" CIARE will occur 300hz above. Driver shows an ideal roll-off at ~230 hz, could be cross-frequency on the ashley-x-over, graph theoretical 18db down at ~400hz, where the audaxes (fs= 185hz) would be at home.
For bottom-end the curtain didn't fall finally. Centuries ago I built hybrid-systems for studiomonitoring and short-throw-PA, using the ATC12-SB-version + SM75-150 midrange-dome.
We tested a range of 12". Carefully manufactured types/cones you can use up to, let'say 500 hz without any cone break-up independant of cone-type, flat/stiff or concentrical design, but that's another story...
I already had a similar idea covering >100hz low end. You suggest 12" 18sound, it's o.k. My idea was using 4x "classical hif-units" 2x2-array (i.e. Vifa VIFA 17 WN 225/8 PAPER COATED or similar types) and the tweeter in center position. But this would extend width dimension up to >14", and cancel my favoured design of a acceptable slim column. Same way I have to live with the 11" of the xt 1086, not with your suggested xt 120 indeed.
Background: single audax generate usable 95db/m/w (only), specified 99db is typical cone-voodoo. Actually I don't know how it will sound crossing at 3-4k(-->x120) or crossing at 1.5k (1030/40 or BC ...).
My experiences are: the lower you cross to to compression the "harder" it will sound, but you'll have sophisticated dynamics.
In this case, my actual version will generate "hard" voices, don't know ???, must check. Smooth harmonic upper-mids we'll get crossing >3.5k not propably, surely. But where's the snare...haha..
In first version you'll favour the sound of your drum-set, 2nd the voice of Enrico Carreras.
By the way, the center-distances are another story, d'Appolito or not depends on this, but he will function better crossing at 1.6k, closing the circle again, no advantage without any disad...
Rock on Brett,
Rob
Hey Rob,
Do a search for posts on the PR170, they're more often than not unhappy below 4/500Hz or so. With the XT120, I was thinking of a LR24 xover at 2k, which still wotks fine with this flare and gets the C-C for D'Appolito OK.
Anyhow, please post as your system progresses, as I'd be curious to hear how you go.
Cheers
Do a search for posts on the PR170, they're more often than not unhappy below 4/500Hz or so. With the XT120, I was thinking of a LR24 xover at 2k, which still wotks fine with this flare and gets the C-C for D'Appolito OK.
Anyhow, please post as your system progresses, as I'd be curious to hear how you go.
Cheers
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