DIfferences in ways of measuring Thiel/Small parameters
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 9th November 2007, 05:45 PM #1 davidallancole   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Nov 2005 DIfferences in ways of measuring Thiel/Small parameters Hello, I have read a few different ways of measuring Thiel/Small parameters. In Rod Elliotts article he uses a 10 ohm resistor in series with the speaker. I think it was in Vance Dickasons book, Vance used a 10k ohm resistor and I have seen on the epanorama website a 1k ohm resistor. My question is, is any one way more accurate or better? Rod Elliotts method requires a power amp in the chain to get the voltage levels right, but it seems with Vances method you could use the output of you sound card on a computer to measure it. Thanks. Here Rods way: http://sound.westhost.com/tsp.htm Epanorama: http://www.epanorama.net/documents/a...arameters.html
 9th November 2007, 07:23 PM #2 Jack Hidley   diyAudio Member     Join Date: May 2007 Location: Danville, CA David, There are two important things to remember when measuring TSPs. One is that you must be measuring the actual impedance of the driver. The first method you posted measures the actual impedance. The second method only measures an estimate of it. Note where the writer says that this method forms a decent current source? An ideal current source has an infinite output impedance. His current source uses a 1k output impedance. This could cause a 10% error in Q measurements with a high BL driver. The only reason to use it, is that it makes the math slightly easier. Use the first method with whatever resistor value you want to. Two is drive level. The TS model assumes that the driver being modeled is linear. They are not. Changing the drive level will therefore affect the measurements. What drive level should you use to take the measurements? That depends mostly on the drivers Xmax. We usually shoot for an excursion at Fs of about 0.2Xmax. That keeps the driver in its mostly linear range, but keeps it out of the low level noise and hysteresis. How much voltage or current does this correspond to? That completely depends on the output resistor you use, the drivers Qes, Qms, Mms and Xmax. Each driver will be different. __________________ Jack Hidley ACS
 9th November 2007, 07:46 PM #3 davidallancole   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Nov 2005 Thanks for the reply Jack. Is there any benefit then to using a constant current source to do these measurements instead of the resistor method? Is there a calculation to figure out how much current or voltage is required to hit the 0.2 Xmax at Fs? Does this require knowing the BL of the speaker? This all sounds a little more complicated than I thought. I will follow Rod Elliotts proposed method then to do my speaker measurements.
 10th November 2007, 02:19 AM #4 soongsc   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Taiwan The way to measure is the way closer to normal operation signal levels since that is the final operating mode. So Jacks 0.2 xmax seems a good point to select. The constant current method may have some problems when using ferro fluid cooling. __________________ Hear the real thing!
 10th November 2007, 03:19 AM #5 Jack Hidley   diyAudio Member     Join Date: May 2007 Location: Danville, CA There is no real difference between using a constant current source or a constant voltage source (normal amplifier) or anything in between. To calculate the current needed to achieve a given displacement, you need to know BL, Mms and Cms. But if you already know these, then you don't need to take the measurement Just connect the driver to an amplifier with a 50ohm resistor in between, drive it with a sine wave and adjust the frequency until you get maximum visible amplitude. Then adjust the drive level until you get 20% of Xmax by eye. Measure the voltage directly at the driver terminals. This should be your drive level during the TSP measurements. __________________ Jack Hidley ACS
 10th November 2007, 06:33 AM #6 soongsc   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Taiwan Trying to use current to get the xmax range using the constant current method requires a much larger amp than normally available. Plus the load on the amp would be so high that would deviate from its original design intent. Hard to say what will affect the test results. I do wonder if anyone is going to get into the delta mass versus delta volume issue. __________________ Hear the real thing!
 10th November 2007, 06:48 AM #7 davidallancole   diyAudio Member   Join Date: Nov 2005 Thanks guys.
pinkmouse
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Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Rotherham, England
Quote:
 Originally posted by soongsc I do wonder if anyone is going to get into the delta mass versus delta volume issue.
All I will say is that I have used both methods and found a pretty good correlation.
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 10th November 2007, 10:06 AM #9 richie00boy   diyAudio Member     Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Gloucestershire, England, UK Why does using constant current have problems with ferrofluid? __________________ www.readresearch.co.uk my website for UK diy audio people - designs, PCBs, modules and more.
Ron E
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Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: USA, MN
Quote:
 Originally posted by richie00boy Why does using constant current have problems with ferrofluid?
Constant current (with a 200-1k series resistor) loses accuracy for higher impedance peaks, and ferrofluid lowers the impedance peaks, so the comment about ferrofluid is mostly spurious. Both methods may have difficulty with small impedance peaks due to the nature of their calculations.

Note that most of these methods assume zero inductance, and there is a way to reduce the effects of inductance on the Qms calculation.

I used to use a 10 ohm series resistor and measure the voltage across the resistor, the speaker and the combo, then you can calculate impedance phase as well as magnitude, and compensate for meter frequency response issues. This is in fact what speaker workshop does. The spot measurements were tedious, so now I use speaker workshop.

Most meters have a poor frequency response. You will get better measurements using speaker workshop or Praxis using a jig.
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