I was amazed the first time I listened to them, the weight in the bass made kick drums and bass instruments sound real. Brass instruments sound real, ohh the trumpets and trombone you can feel, and the vocals close your eyes and the singer is in the room.
But they challenged everything I thought I knew about speakers. I was used to this pinpoint imaging but I have realised that’s not how we hear live music and so it’s less natural to my ears. I started to feel like my other speakers sounded like I could hear the microphone rather than the instrument.
The OB doesn’t have the micro detail of say the KEF LS50 but even that doesn’t seem natural. While swapping between them I heard a piano stool slide on the floor through the LS50’s that was startling but hardly noticeable on the OB. While this was interesting I came to the conclusion not really natural because if I was at the show I don’t think it would have caught my attention.
The LS50 can put on a really good show but the OB made me want to listen to music. Hours would go by as I sat in front of their big baffles and was transported into another space.
I’d go back to one of my box speakers and the vocals seemed to come from an unnaturally small space where as the OB vocals sounded face sized
So after a few weeks the LS50’s are sold and the work has begun on the more refined build of these wonderfull speakers that make me enjoy the music rather than the sound.
If you want to see how these speakers can move you emotionally listen to both versions of “daily battles” from the Motherless Brooklyn movie soundtrack. Thom Yorke’s vocal is mesmerising and Wynton Marsalis on trumpet will tickle your tear ducts
Enjoy
But they challenged everything I thought I knew about speakers. I was used to this pinpoint imaging but I have realised that’s not how we hear live music and so it’s less natural to my ears. I started to feel like my other speakers sounded like I could hear the microphone rather than the instrument.
The OB doesn’t have the micro detail of say the KEF LS50 but even that doesn’t seem natural. While swapping between them I heard a piano stool slide on the floor through the LS50’s that was startling but hardly noticeable on the OB. While this was interesting I came to the conclusion not really natural because if I was at the show I don’t think it would have caught my attention.
The LS50 can put on a really good show but the OB made me want to listen to music. Hours would go by as I sat in front of their big baffles and was transported into another space.
I’d go back to one of my box speakers and the vocals seemed to come from an unnaturally small space where as the OB vocals sounded face sized
So after a few weeks the LS50’s are sold and the work has begun on the more refined build of these wonderfull speakers that make me enjoy the music rather than the sound.
If you want to see how these speakers can move you emotionally listen to both versions of “daily battles” from the Motherless Brooklyn movie soundtrack. Thom Yorke’s vocal is mesmerising and Wynton Marsalis on trumpet will tickle your tear ducts
Enjoy
Listening impressions..
Pete.... Thanks for having enough trust in the simple design to build it and thanks for sharing your listening impressions.. Not far from what I have experienced.... Any well designed OB set up correctly and offered a competent front end offers a lot of what you observed. So many people have gotten used to closed box reproduction, good, bad and ugly. When offered something different, again, good, bad or ugly they have some difficulty appreciating it.
A good OB is honest. Not blingy (blingie?). You can instantly tell the difference between class AB vs. Class A amplification. At least I can, even being half deaf these days.
There are many of course that would disagree, but that is good too.
Side note: Did hear Wynton Marsalis live once many years ago. Such a talent! Unfortunately it was at one of his freinds funeral in LA. Amazing grace trumpet solo. Definite tears. Will never forget it! Best J
Pete.... Thanks for having enough trust in the simple design to build it and thanks for sharing your listening impressions.. Not far from what I have experienced.... Any well designed OB set up correctly and offered a competent front end offers a lot of what you observed. So many people have gotten used to closed box reproduction, good, bad and ugly. When offered something different, again, good, bad or ugly they have some difficulty appreciating it.
A good OB is honest. Not blingy (blingie?). You can instantly tell the difference between class AB vs. Class A amplification. At least I can, even being half deaf these days.
There are many of course that would disagree, but that is good too.
Side note: Did hear Wynton Marsalis live once many years ago. Such a talent! Unfortunately it was at one of his freinds funeral in LA. Amazing grace trumpet solo. Definite tears. Will never forget it! Best J
Alpair 5.3
I was hoping to use my Aplair 5.3 as the tweeter. Is this going to change the required parts?
I was hoping to use my Aplair 5.3 as the tweeter. Is this going to change the required parts?
If you want to use the Alpair instead of the Vifa, start by comparing their FR charts. That will help you know how much and where you need to change the filter designed for the Vifa. Do you need more attenuation, or less? Would the trap be the same? Is the Alpair capable thru the crossover region?, etc.
I thought I’d just keep this thread alive and let everyone know this design is still getting built.
I knocked together the 12” inch version from and old bed head I had laying around and was amazed by the open baffle experience
The baffle is only particle board so the woofer really excites it and the thin panel the vifa is mounted in vibrates considerably so I’ve got a few improvements planned for the next build.
Thanks to John and everyone who has contributed to this thread.
I’m keeping an eye out for the next version with the twin woofers that’s been teased. Hope your well John and Hello from down here in Australia
Good to see this being built in down under. I wonder where you sourced parts for the crossover? I just bought the 12 woofer from Wagner.
Thank you for advice. I need to study all those details. Steep learning curve for me.
Yes, crossovers can be tough to learn at the beginning. But it helps if you think of passive crossovers as voltage dividers - frequency dependent voltage dividers. Resistors lower everything, capacitors block the lows, inductors (coils) block the highs. You can use these alone or in combination to achieve what you want.
Let's take a look at the tweeter section of the Manzanita crossover in the most basic way.
What does each part do?
Those are the very basics.
What does each part do?
- The resistor R1 restricts the amount of current that can flow thru the Vifa. Lower current= lower sound level. This resistor lowers the level of all frequencies to bring the Vifa's output down to the level of the woofer. We are now level matched
- Capacitor C1 is the high pass filter. Being a cap, it's going to restrict the current flow of the low frequencies. Again, lower current = lower output. C1 turns the Vifa into a tweeter be not allowing current flow in the low frequencies.
- L2 and R2. They tame the rising response of the Vifa, which gets louder as the frequencies go up. L2 is an inductor so it blocks current flow at high frequencies, just as C1 blocks current flow at low frequencies. L1 alone would roll off all the top end of the Vifa, it would act as a low pass filter. That's were R2 comes in. R2 is a bypass of L1 letting some current flow at all frequencies. While L1 is blocking the highs, R2 is letting some go thru, which makes them work together as a high shelf, just tilting down the rising response of the Vifa and making it flat. Or sort of flat.
Those are the very basics.
I finally splurged for 2 14ga Mundorf air coils, replacing the 2 ERSE iron core coils for the Vifa full range. All I can say is that it was money well spent! I've learned that the Ultra is just a bit too big for the room, so going to head back into the garage in the near future to build the baffle for the slightly smaller Manzanita and use the current components that I have. It's been a very nice adventure the last few years!
Just remember John the designer of the Manzanita had many years of experience and tested multiple drivers before choosing the Vifa as the best match for the Pearless woofer. I’m sure he could have made other drivers work but he speaks very highly of the Vifa and I’m inclined to trust his expertise
Unless you have a really good reason to use the Alpair I’d recommend spending the money on the Vifa and use your time to build a proven design. Once you know how things should sound then you could experiment to see if you improve on the design
Thank you Pano for the explanation. I decided to build the 15 inch version and follow all recommendations. I am not clear whether the 4.7mh inductor is mean to be air or iron core. Parts Express seem to have only iron core.
sonidos... The Manzanita was voiced middle of the road if you will. Predicting how a speaker will sound in a specfic room is a fools errand. However, logic and experience indicates your reflective floor may lift the upper end from 1Khz or so up. And there will be a bit of an increase in the bass end floor bounce that may provide a small peak and or suckout or two in the mid bass. Botton line, try the standard set up and modify from there. A couple of well placed throw rugs may help smooth things out if needed. J
John,
Thanks for the input. Yes, rather than you or anyone taking on a fool's errand, it's best I look into buying a measuring mike and spend some time looking at what's going on in my room and adjust accordingly. And yes, I'm going with the middle of the road setup as my starting point, so here's to taking the next step.
Thanks for the input. Yes, rather than you or anyone taking on a fool's errand, it's best I look into buying a measuring mike and spend some time looking at what's going on in my room and adjust accordingly. And yes, I'm going with the middle of the road setup as my starting point, so here's to taking the next step.
Tweeter placement
Hello everybody!
Congrats to John Busch & Pano for such an amazing thread.
I'm new to the forum and I'm planning to build Manzanita Ultra with hope to discover the joy of open baffle sound. (my first build)
I just have one question about tweeter placement.
Would center-line driver placement or symmetrical placement work as well as mirrored one? (while respecting the distance between tweeter and woofer)
I know it my sound silly but I find mirrored speakers quite unsettling and disturbing to look at, so I would like to avoid it if possible
Thank you, Frane
Hello everybody!
Congrats to John Busch & Pano for such an amazing thread.
I'm new to the forum and I'm planning to build Manzanita Ultra with hope to discover the joy of open baffle sound. (my first build)
I just have one question about tweeter placement.
Would center-line driver placement or symmetrical placement work as well as mirrored one? (while respecting the distance between tweeter and woofer)
I know it my sound silly but I find mirrored speakers quite unsettling and disturbing to look at, so I would like to avoid it if possible
Thank you, Frane